Numbers from Michigan and Arizona have yet to come in. Here’s what we know now: The Republican Party is committing suicide. Right in front of us. For those who like public Harakiri….ENJOY! What else do we know? Romney is a disaster as a campaigner. I’ve been watching Presidential politics for decades now (Go ahead, call me a nerd.) and I’ve never seen a tacit “front-runner” shoot his toes off with such regularity.
And – thanks to gas prices – Obama is back underwater. A drunk in a phone booth could run a solid campaign against Obama this year…and yet the GOP can’t manage to get it together.
UPDATE: Romney has won both races. Just watched Mrs Romney speaking in MI. I’ll tell what -where has she been? Mittens needs to put her up front more often. She actually seems almost real. Mittens isn’t bad tonight either. He’s actually hired a speech writer. He still can’t really deliver a speech very well…but he’s got the words. He’s almost what I expected him to be months ago. He’s playing the competence card hard. No vision. Just competence.
- I digress a bit from some punditry I’m hearing that these two wins won’t help Romney. They won’t help a lot. But they will help. He dodged a massive bullet.
- As a final note I see that the two African-Americans who voted for Romney artfully placed right behind him. I’m sure they are real supporters and am glad they have great seats. But this game of using people of color as props is condescending and demeaning. I can see the campaign aid scouring the crowd, thinking “Oh look! 2 black people! I need to get them on stage! Now let’s find some Asians!”
The country deserves better; replacing the GOP would be a good idea. RIP GOP.
If the country deserves better, it deserves better than Obama. Keep drinking the kool-aid, doc.
I vote for replacing them both. They both do not listen to or work for the people.
Replace them both but let’s START with Obama! Maybe then we could get our party back.
“A party of order or stability, and a party of progress or reform, are both necessary elements of a healthy state of political life.” — John Stuart Mill
We have neither in this country at this time.
Per Fox News, Santorum lost the Catholic vote in both AZ and MI (according to exit polls).
ROFL
Poor Frothy Mix Sanitarium
Ha!
I wonder what accounts for that reportedly lost Catholic vote. It’s a bit mysterious. Perhaps, American Catholics (except Mel Gibson) don’t like such an extremist representing their faith.
Because most Catholics actually like their birth control and their premarital sex and college. (Either that or 42% of Catholics are Jesuits.)
@NES — Santorum’s loss of the Catholic vote is easily explained — if you are a blue collar Catholic you have two pictures on your wall: Jesus Christ & JFK.
Santorum should remember that next time he feels like throwing up. (h/t jterrier).
What you said about Santorum and his dissing of JFK has the ring of truth to it. A brilliant observation (and wittily put too).
Im a political junkie just like JWS and Ive been watching this whole thing and shaking my head too.. Romney just doesnt seem to be able to resonate with broad spectrum Republicans.. and I keep thinking to myself “Why isnt this guy doing more to lock this thing up?”
BUT.. then at the same time I also think that the big race is the Republican candidate VS Obama…so if a Republican candidate can jog to the finish line of the primary and then expend all of their effort and capital on the big race (the race VS Obama) then I cant help but wonder if thats not the smart play.
Also the less Romney resonates with the hard evangelical right, it can be argued the more he resonates with the undecideds or the middle of the roaders… no matter what the mass media is saying (and I also think that alot of it is that “hey why cant Romney close the deal, hes a weak candidate”) also the most recent attempt to “Santorum the Campaign” in that the longer the Republicans take to bring a candidate forward the weaker they are.
Having said all that, Rasmussen polls show Romney slightly ahead of Obama..so it might make more sense for him to sit back and wait until after the nomination to go full on into campaign mode and go after Obama.
My take on Mitt Romney so far is “meh” he’d probably be very similar to Obama in office but the Obama machine needs to come down so the Democratic party can rise from the ashes in 2016. If Obama takes it in 2012 the Democratic party (as we knew it prior to 2008 is done… (stick a fork in it and all it represented)
So my choice becomes voting for one candidate who will utterly destroy whats left of the Democratic party (i.e. vote Obama) and one who will allow the Democrats to lick their wounds, circle their wagons, go to Obama Kool Aid Rehab and come back stronger in 2016 (i.e. Romney).
What I dont get, and havent seen so far, which may be the disconnect with voters is the simple questions… “Can Romney throw a punch?” and “Can Romney take a punch?” and I think that may be why he’s percieved as a milquetoast up until this point.. we haven’t really seen it.
Mouse, don’t know whether Romney can “take a punch.” But, I think we’ve seen him “throw a punch” (or ten, at Newtie).
“So my choice becomes voting for one candidate who will utterly destroy whats left of the Democratic party (i.e. vote Obama) and one who will allow the Democrats to lick their wounds, circle their wagons, go to Obama Kool Aid Rehab and come back stronger in 2016 (i.e. Romney).”
Not going to the Barr then, Mouse?
Sorry that was me Dan Sh1138 not AnonYMouse… sorry.
Is this the “real” Mouse?
Dan, I like what you have to say.
Aha, Dan Sh, thanks for the clarification! I was wondering if our ANonOMouse had had one too many Michelobs.
Yep, Dan. Agree with PJ.
“I was wondering if our ANonOMouse had had one too many Michelobs”
Not yet, but I will now that Sanitarium lost both AZ & MI.
“Can Romney throw a punch?”
Oh, he can throw a punch, especially at himself, but his foes haven’t laid a glove on him. Obama is likely to give him a working over Maybe he’s saving himself for the main event.
And Romney doesn’t have to throw anymore punches at Gingerrhoiid, since Newt unveiled his moon colonization plan. His wad is shot, although he might win a couple fo the deep southern states.
And apparently nobody told Little Ricky Sanitarium that 51% of this country is female and that his ideas on contraception, reproductive freedom and women’s healthcare are not lost on women, apparently not even on catholic women. He can make laws governing our uterus as soon as we can vote on whether or not he gets to keep his penis.
And Ron Paul, poor guy, is the wrong guy, in the wrong century.
Anon, My take is that your take here is spot on.
HaHaHa, Mouse. Well and wittily summarized on the GOPers.
Excellent analysis, Dansh. I don’t think an obama defeat this Fall will allow him to “lick his wounds.” Other power players in the party would finally be emboldened to step up. But don’t put it past obama to run again in ’16 anyway.. And if he wins this year, even before the inauguration we’ll be hearing about efforts to repeal the 22nd Amd.
I think Obama needs to lose, the Democrats need to clean house and go back to the core values of the party.
In order for that to happen the Obama brand needs to fail, and that whole brand idea needs to be repudiated.
I don’t like the idea of Romney in the White House for 4 years, but I like the idea of Barry getting a second term even less.
Tamerlane, I totally forgot to consider the possibility of Barry re-running in 2016 if (and hopefully when) he loses in 2012. I doubt he has the stones for it, and would much rather make money on the book tour and speaking circuit hopefully.
I think Obama would try to run again in ’16 if he’s tossed out in Nov.
The Lord Obama giveth and taketh away — “Section 1022 does not apply to U.S. citizens, and the President has decided to waive its application to lawful permanent residents arrested in the United States.”
It’s nice that he can get his ‘civil rights’ t-shirt on in time for the election; ain’t it? All the Obots will now swoon and revel in the glory of His beneficence.
More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/28/indefinite-military-deten_n_1308129.html
Fox News call the MI race for Romney.
High five, NES!
Whoa! High-five, PJ! Thanks for the good news.
Now Sanctimonium can go lick his wounds and say some novenas.
“Now Sanctimonium can go lick his wounds and say some novenas”
Sanitarium can’t “lick” anything, that’s against his moral code.
Yes! A good night for Romney!
Paul had a good showing…….if your view is from the rear…..
“Sanitarium can’t “lick” anything, that’s against his moral code.”
Not even Il Papa’s red Gucci loafers?
PJ — I think Paul did have a good showing when you consider that he didn’t even contest in Mich.
I don’t know, those slippers are expensive, Maybe pappa will let him kiss the big ring
I don’t dislike Paul as much as his supporters…
So sure, he did ok.
“Paul had a good showing…….if your view is from the rear”
LOL!!!!
…..
Mouse,
Do you think M*ass*a is crying? Poor Massa!
“Do you think M*ass*a is crying? Poor Massa!”
I be thinkin that right about now, Massa is wiping is nose on his Rolex. But he gonna be fine. I gots da Disco ball all shiny and bright and he be dancin the bugaloo before ya know it.
Goods da hear. I’s worried bout him.
HaHa!!
Love that Obama is back underwater.
JWS: I’m gobsmacked by the difference in the component polls (at your link) that the RCP average on Obama’s approval/disapproval rating is comprised of. I mean, what da hell is Politico smoking — their number is completely out of whack with the others; ditto for the Dem.-sumthing poll, although to a lesser degree.
Loved this! — “A drunk in a phone booth could run a solid campaign against Obama this year…”
Jon Stewart explains why Insanitorum & Romney keep blowing it. Scroll down and watch the video. Its hilarious:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-ridicules-santorums-snob-remark-you-are-against-college-because-it-is-fancy/
SoCal……Thank ya darlin for the link. I’m needing a laugh and no one does it better than Jon
I would recommend that everyone watch the Jon Steward link SoCal provided. If you need to laugh, it’s a sure bet. Thanks again SoCal
My pleasure! xo
Don’t know why RCP chooses the polls it does. On the whole I think it’s the best barometer I’ve seen. That aggregate got the midterm almost exactly right. NBC and some others lean left. Rasmussen leans right. On par adding them all together seems like a good window into things.
Romney struck me as an almost “good” candidate tonight. If gas prices stay high and Mittens stops going off script we will have a real race after all.
Also I really can’t stand any of these people, but I’m relieved that Santorum lost. That guy is dangerous.
“Also I really can’t stand any of these people, but I’m relieved that Santorum lost. That guy is dangerous.”
So am I John. He gives me the creeps.
Santorum is way creepy. I’m so very happy that he lost. Now, here’s hoping Ohians also do the right thing.
The Right punditocracy sees this another gaffe by Romney. But, it’s what makes him attractive to Indys:
“Mitt Romney was asked at a press conference in Michigan this morning about his inability to excite “the base” of the Republican party, and he replied:
You know, it’s very easy to excite the base with incendiary comments. We’ve seen throughout the campaign if you’re willing to say really outrageous things that are accusative, attacking of President Obama, that you’re going to jump up in the polls. I’m not willing to light my hair on fire to try and get support. I am who I am.
I’m a person with extensive experience in the private sector, in the economy. I understand job creation from a personal standpoint and from a theoretical standpoint. I want to use those skills to help the country. And if I get selected, great, and if I don’t, I can live with that too. I’m putting myself out there because I think I can do a better job getting America back on track. I think this president has taken us in a very dangerous direction, and that we’ve got to get him out of the White House. But I’m not willing to say anything to get that nod.”
More: http://www.weeklystandard.com/print/blogs/romney-its-very-easy-excite-base-incendiary-comments_632946.html
I think thats one of the best things he has said, but of course I am an Indy myself.
It was a good reply, now if only someone could rig a contraption to keep his foot from his mouth.. Where is Rube Goldberg when he is needed ?
Mitt “won” (barely) because Rick went just one step too far this past week.
Trashing education along with JFK is not a winning strategy when combined with the other insane statements he has uttered against contraception and birth control.
As his “true beliefs” were unveiled enough voters in MI decided to take a pass and found themselves in the Mitt Column, like it or not.
Their choice boiled down to a truly insipid candidate as opposed to a deranged demogogue and the voters spoke. Rather than be “lectured to death” they preferred “the bored to death” option offered up by Mittens.
But Super Tuesday will be the defining moment if enough fundies get out there and cast their votes for the candidate who promises to substitute the Bible as the “law of the land” as opposed to the candidate who is unable to define himself.
Only time will tell.
At least we can credit Santorum for being honest — he believes the 1st Amendment is unconstitutional, and said so.
Just watched Mrs Romney speaking in MI. I’ll tell what -where has she been? Mittens needs to put her up front more often. She actually seems almost real.
Ann Romney has MS and is a breast cancer survivor, so she really has to conserve her strength on the campaign trail.
I agree with you that if Mitt does pull it off, it will be thanks to Ann. Part of it is that whenever Mitt looks at her he gets this sappy expression that makes even an anti-Mittster like me melt a bit.
Pat, just curious, and no disrespect intended, but why aren’t you supporting Obama? You do seem to agree with many of his stances on issues. There is no shame in supporting a candidate you would not want to ‘have a beer’ with..
I would prefer Hell to freeze over rather than share so much as a glass of water with Romney, but I am firmly in the almost ABO camp, based on his policies not his lousy personality.
I recognize that being a long term urban dweller, my experience is far from universal, but I just don’t see an evangelical nutjob hiding behind every tree. Santorum represents a sort of manic devotion to his beliefs, which at first glance,if true, is kind of brave, especially in these times, when ‘whatever’ is the universal word. However, in the end, he scares the stuffing out of,imo, a lot of reasonable voters, in whom I have a guarded, but somewhat firm, trust.
Who says I support Obama? I can’t stand him.
However, I do object to any party that features the following;
1. full blown homophobia
2. full blown hatred towards a woman’s right to choose
3. full blown attacks on Planned Parenthood that offers medical treatment to women
4. theocracy in place of democracy
5. deregulation of much needed safeguards over the food, water and air supplies
6. a party that caters to the rich by interceding with efforts to do away with the Bush tax cuts
7. a party that stands as one as obstuctionists when it comes to serving the common good
8. a party that hails war
9. candidates who pander to the radical right wing philosophy that all government is bad
10. a party promising to strip equality from their rhetoric and replacing it with fascist tendencies
11. a party that denies global warming
12. a party that mocks science
13. a party that decries education as “elitist”
14. a party intent on stripping collective bargaining from workers
15. a party that refuses to stand up against the lunacy of its candidates by remaining silent
15. a party willing to sacrifice the environment for the sake of “business”
Does this make me a “supporter” of Obama? No way.
Both sides go against my own Democratic principles but nowhere does it say that as disappointed and frustrated with Obama and the cowering Dems who do not stand against this intrusion of rights, must I then accept or embrace a philosophy or an agenda that I believe is detrimental to democracy.
The fact is that I can hold the same contempt for each side without having to “choose” between either one as the answer.
I totally distrust Obama but I fear the Right.
I hope this answers your question.
obama carefully picks his “stances” to try and fool people like Pat into voting for him. (Too bad Pat’s smarter than the average voter.) Yet obama’s actions and policies are rarely in sync with those “stances.”
Thank you, I think you have a lot of company in your beliefs, I would only suggest that ‘distrust and fear’ are flip sides of the same coin.
So where does that leave us ? In a sane world, some high ranking Dems would meet with O, and tell him he is losing any real support, and instead, is being condescended to, which is a hoot, considering he is the Condescender In Chief.. and that it is time to get off at the next train station.
Then we could dust off a real Democrat, assuming we could find one, and they might win the race.
“So where does that leave us ? In a sane world, some high ranking Dems would meet with O, and tell him he is losing any real support, and instead, is being condescended to, which is a hoot, considering he is the Condescender In Chief.. and that it is time to get off at the next train station.”
Sophie, why would the “high ranking Dems” have that conversation with O when he’s riding the wave right. The ‘smart money’ currently on his re-election.
Also, I’m curious on your point about O being “condescended to” — what do you mean?…how and by whom?
Remember tonight at 6pm pacific!!!
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/johnwsmart/2012/03/01/the-john-smart-show
one topic on the agenda tonight:
http://trueliberalnexus.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/infidel-go-home/
NES, I believe O to be the invention of a marriage between powerful financial interests and the media. As such, he is their toy and chief errand boy. As long as he stays in line, they keep pretending to take him seriously. Meanwhile, he insults the intelligence of most of the public every time he opens his mouth.Those who voice their dismay, are told they don’t understand his multi-dimensional brain, and are too p.c. to argue about it. But they know condescension when they hear it.
Whether it be about his fantasy budgets, or his S.O.T.U. campaign speech.. He is a fraudulent joke, albeit, an increasingly humorless and dangerous type of amusement..For now, the chosen few are making money in oil, but then what ? The ‘being green’ schtick is flopping and the bodies are piling up. How many clowns can you stuff into a Volt anyhow ?
Thanks for the (witty) explanation, Sophie. You are spot-on!
If I may, Tamerlane, I’d like to congratulate you on a most excellent piece (entitled “Infidel, Go Home!”). It’s really well-written, cogently argued, and immaculately researched. Thank you for it — you said what needs to be said.
There’re too many gems and points to comment on here, but I’ll note three I particularly agree with:
1. As you say, “Islam is utterly intolerant of the beliefs of others.” No one can deny this — not credibly anyway.
2. As you say, “our modern western culture, as exampled by the rights enshrined in the US Constitution, is better in absolute terms than the backwards, islamic culture of Afghanistan, as exemplified by their sharia. The framers of our highest law were well-read children of the Enlightenment; theirs are superstitious relics of the Dark Ages.” Every Western leader should be called upon to acknowledge this or suffer derision.
[Unfortunately, I didn't have the good fortune to be born in, or to grow up in, the West, but it is the culture in which I was educated and to which my mind and heart adhere and have always adhered. Put generously, the American Left (particularly, the so-called 'progressives') don't appreciate the West and Western values.]
3. It is, indeed, time for us to pack up and leave Afghanistan. Let them live in the 9th century. If they cause us any trouble, we can always return the ‘favor’ (preferably with aerial bombing and Seal visits).
Also, Tamerlane, thanks for putting that troublesome troll, Walthe, in his place. His rude and sophomoric comment proves your point about the proglodytes and their inability to think themselves out of a paper bag on PC matters.
Thank you; I’m flattered.
I haven’t read Tamerlane’s article yet, but I’m looking forward to it.
NES…..Do you think there is a difference between the strict adherence to dogma of Islam of Afghanistan and/or other areas in the ME and the Islam of people born and raised in the U.S. ?
I can tell you growing up in the bible belt that the religious fervor of the Southern Baptists is much more radicalized in their biblical inerancy dogma than other Baptists and protestanism in general. Also there’s a huge cultural divide in how catholicism is practiced in the U.S. and Mexico and some of the european countries. Can Islam be painted with such a broad strokes?
You know I’m not defending Islam or any religion, just want the opinion of someone who has seen both. I’ve spent all of my life on this continent, so all I know from observation is my experience here.
And I wasn’t against our intial entry into Afghanistan after 911 or even the surge. The mission as it was originally framed was to eradicate Al Qaeda, particularly the leadership command and control and capture or kill Bin Laden. When that was accomplished, and everything I’ve read says it has, it seems to me the mission should be over.
I’ve have family who’ve been deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan, several times, and have a another family member going to Afghanistan this spring/summer. Perhaps my emotion concerning this is somewhat clouded, but I don’t see that there’s anything left for us to do there and as the Russians found it, and which some historians now blame for their collapse, there is no possiblity of defeating the Taliban. Let them have their cesspoll, lithium and all.
Mouse said: “NES…..Do you think there is a difference between the strict adherence to dogma of Islam of Afghanistan and/or other areas in the ME and the Islam of people born and raised in the U.S. ?”
– and –
“Can Islam be painted with such a broad strokes?”
Mouse, you ask a difficult set of interrelated questions, and it’ll probably take more thought than I can give it at this moment. More later, perhaps.
My initial response is: I do think Islam is sufficiently monolithic, so that one is justified in painting with a broad stroke. I also think, however, that one has to tease out Muslims as people/individuals from the nature of their religion and the pernicious hold it has on them. So, e.g., I know, am friends with, and have affection for many Muslims — mostly back home but also some in the USA — and they are ‘westernized’ in pretty much every aspect of their lives, save and except in matters pertaining to their religion. Also, many of them will voice their disapproval of over-the-top actions of Islamists — eg, riots over the Danish cartoons; the fatwa against Salman Rusdie; the fairly recent murder of the Gov. of Sind (Pakistan), who had the temerity to challenge blasphemy laws — BUT, except for a handful of singularly courageous people (who one reads about), they will NOT do so in public. Why? It’s a combination of fear of reprisals (ranging from social ostracism to injury/maiming to death) AND an inability (seemingly emotional) to set themselves at odds with the words of the koran/quran (which term I am NOT title-capping in honor of our less-than-beloved blogpet, Walthe).
I think the story of what the quran is and how it came to be written is the root cause of the problem. As you may know, Muslims believe that the quran is literally the word of Allah. And, to ‘prove’ the point, the prophet is widely believed to have been an illiterate man, to whom Allah revealed the quran, word for word. Once you grasp the nettle of this so-called truth at the heart of Islam (whether practiced in an orthodox or more liberal way) — that the quran is the verbatim word of God — all else falls into place, such as: the lack of a reformation in Islam (how can one ‘reform’ the word of God); blasphemy being a capital offense (how can one speak against or in belittlement God, his prophet, or the word of God); apostasy being a capital offense (how can an erstwhile believer turn against God); mishandling, let alone destruction, of the quran being a mortal sin (how can one disrespect or destroy the book which carries the word of God); the Muhammed cartoons causing riots (how can one tolerate the belittlement of the prophet); and so on.
The quran’s status in Muslims’ minds (be they ever so modern) as the verbatim word of Allah is the reason that Islam has never undergone a reformation (or at least one of any significance). Christianity of course went through a reformation, and emerged largely adaptive and mostly shorn of its unpalatable tenets. I believe this is because the Bible (including, the standard four gospels) does not purport to be the word of God, but rather is comprised of the belated accounts of mere mortals with a claim to personally witnessing Jesus’ life and teachings. Because the books of the Bible contain the words and observations of mere mortals, they may be variously interpreted, construed and applied; and, more significantly, they can be viewed throught the prism of changing times, the sharp-edges rounded and made more palatable to modern thought and practices.
The million-dollar question: will Islam undergo a reformation? I doubt it — and certainly not in our lifetimes. Or, at least not until the overwhelming majority of Muslims, worldwide, become middle-class (or attain a higher economic status) and practically secular — I’m certain that’ll never happen in our lifetimes.
“I’ve have family who’ve been deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan, several times, and have a another family member going to Afghanistan this spring/summer. Perhaps my emotion concerning this is somewhat clouded, but I don’t see that there’s anything left for us to do there….”
Mouse, sorry to hear that you have had/will have family members in that hell-hole. It’s shameful that we send our young people there in the name of ‘patriotism’ or ‘nation-building’ for ‘our security.’ Their lifes should not be endangered short of an actual or constructive attack on this country — the impending destruction of a close ally may also justify deployment, if necessary. If your judgment on this point is “somewhat clouded,” I wish everyone’s was similarly clouded.
As I’ve said before, I don’t see any reason to stay longer. I totally get Zal’s point about the valuable resources in Afghanistan that we’d want to mine, but a modern democracy is not going to tolerate the commitment of troops simply to guard mining operations. At the end of the day, the American people will not tolerate that kind of commitment (even if they take a while getting to that point); and, I think they’re already out of patience, so it’s now a moot point.
Thanks NES….I appreciate your taking the time to answer. I really need to educate myself on the subject better. I know catholicsm and the SBC, very well, but my expriences with Islam are limited, What experience I have is through people I grew up with and have known a lifetime and they’re not radicalized. .
Just so you know. Catholicism and a sizable portion of Protestantism believe both the OT & NT are the inspired word of god and many also believe in biblical inerrancy. Many christians faiths make their entire case against homosexuality and gay marriage from the teachings of Paul of Tarsus and OT verses, primarily Leviticus. In the books of MMLJ, where Jesus teachings are recounted in the 3rd person, Jesus never speaks of homosexuality and never speaks of abortion, nor about birth control, which as we all know were practices of the time. Ironically many priests and preachers are in love with the teachings of Paul, who was a bit fire & brimstone and they use him freely in sermon as the spokesman for God on the those issue. Ironically. Paul never knew Jesus, and although most christians think the books writting by MMLJ were written by the appostles, many biblical scholars don’t agree. .
Mouse — True on the use and misuse of Biblical scriptures for Evango and Catholic political purposes. Still, the books of MMLJ were not dictated, verbatim, by the Christian God — which, in my book, leaves room for interpretation, variances, reformation, etc. (Btw, I studied the Gospel According to St. Luke, lo those many years ago [in secondary school]; ditto, the Acts of the Apostles. I trace my heathenism to those years of study…and my parents’ liberal attitudes.)
You say, “Paul of Tarsus,” but you meant to say Saul of Tarsus, who of course became St. Paul after his conversion on the road to Damascus. Saul was quite a debauched rake and libertine, by all accounts; St. Paul, quite the prude. Yes, St. Paul has a lot to answer for in the realm of repression/oppression, most especially for the RCC’s regressive views and treatment of women. I warrant Jesus — who seems to have loved loud-mouthed and independent women, would’ve been quite disappointed in Paul (but, as you say, they never met).
NES: Interesting take on why Christianity was able to undergo a reformation and Islam cannot but I respectfully disagree. I wouldn’t rule out a significant portion of the faithfully believing the Bible was the inerrant word of God. Heck, it was in Latin at the time and most of Christendom thought that was God’s own language. (But not the reformers.)
The reformation came about because the excesses of the church had gotten, well, excessive. Martin Luther railed against the selling of indulgences and then everybody who hated “Romish ways” piled on. There were the anti-Mary’s, the pugatory-deniers and saint-doubters, and the ones who didn’t want to play dress-up any more. And others. But the thing is that it was a reformation of the culture that Catholicism had become, not a revision to the Bible. We can draw enough parallels to the “excesses” of the culture of Islam without touching the Quran. (We can do that with the Fundigelicals as well.)
SophieCT, I don’t disagree with your view of the Protestant Reformation. I wasn’t meaning to exclude that, but I was also using reformation in a broader sense. Reformation as in change (for the better) — breathing new life into dead text, dead doctrines, ancient practices, and the like.
Here’s the real point I was trying to make. The RCC-bred pre-Reformation culture had become corrupt and unpalatable to many. And, clearly, it had strayed far afield from the spirit and words of the NT gospels. If I recall my St. Luke Gospel, there’s nothing in the NT that promotes violence, intolerance, the killing of non-believers, the oppression and subjugation of women, and the like evil. But, there IS in the quran, unfortunately — there’s too much of it, in fact. No religion worth any respect should contain such language and such vile directives. So, it’s not that Islamic culture has strayed from the quran — as pre-Reformation Christianity had strayed from the gospels — it is that the Islamic ‘culture’ that is now oppressing the world has its roots in the text of the quran (supposedly, the immutable word of Allah). We refuse to see it because we like to assume that all creeds that wear the mantle of “religion” are worthy of our respect — Islam proves us wrong, and we have to rethink our assumptions. (None of this is to say that the quran doesn’t also contain words and verses of peace and love, and all that — that’s not the problem…the fact that it also contains words and verses of war and destruction and hate and intolerance is the problem, and it’s unforgiveable.
Thanks to all on a great thread, infidels; read this article from “The Atlantic” in 1999 on attempts by scholars to do the same to the Qur’an that was done to the Bible 150 years ago–to open it to textual analysis to address its real and not purported origins. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/4024/
Ok, NES. I didn’t realize that’s where you were coming from. I was thinking along the lines of the honor killings, which is not part of the faith, but of the culture.
So, basically, we’re hosed because their book says to kill the infidels and the dominant book of our culture says to forgive them 7×70 times. Hmmm. Wonder how that’s gonna work out. The only thing we have going for us in the West is that most of the folks who believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God don’t know what’s in it.
“So, basically, we’re hosed because their book says to kill the infidels and the dominant book of our culture says to forgive them 7×70 times. Hmmm. Wonder how that’s gonna work out.”
ROFL, SophieCT. Yeah, I’m afraid we might be HOSED. But, I’m hoping Fio’s article will make a good case for why my pessimissm on this score is unwarranted.
Obama’s going to win re-election.
And even if he lost, Democrats aren’t going to learn a thing. They’re full-tilt blaming others, primarily Republicans and the ridiculously vague “1%.”
We aren’t going back. And where we’re headed is grim because our population has not learned we need to make better choices.
” where we’re headed is grim ”
Well, it’s a good thing you’ve stashed all that spam and bottled water. (please don’t tell me you wasted your money on gold.)
Hate spam, have three spring wells and no bottled water, and no on the gold.
I’ve been specific and clear about where we’re headed and it’s not, in my view, an apocalyptic scene like in The Road. I’m prepared for what I see coming; if it turns out to be a rosier scenario, everything I’m doing will enhance our life anyway.
Try slicing it thin & frying it, then serve with pineapple rings fried in the residual grease. (Skip the poi.) Tasty!
Never understood the people hording gold for the end times (assumedly to trade for spam & bottles of water.) If I horde bullets instead, I can take their gold and keep my spam.
“Obama’s going to win re-election.And even if he lost, Democrats aren’t going to learn a thing. They’re full-tilt blaming others, primarily Republicans and the ridiculously vague “1%.””
Oh, no, more hand wringing, wailing and gnashing of teeth because the sky is falling. And have you forgotten that your new line is that the world is over if anybody but Ron Paul wins? So now you’re saying that if a republican wins it’s still over because “Democrats aren’t going to learn a thing”? It’s the democrats fault that the republicans are running a bunch of losers that even the republicans don’t want?
Are you not reading the warning lables on your meds?
Zal, you’ve been consistently saying Obama will win for a while now. Of late I think you’re more right than wrong broadly speaking. Though I’m not in agreement with your reasons (I think) The election will most likely ride on our sense of the economy. If we “feel” even okay in October Obama wins. If anything – and I mean anything at al – upsets that “okay” feeling, Romney will – PROBABLY – be a perfectly suitable alternative to a majority of Americans. After watching his speech last night i sense he finally “gets” his problem on the stump. In one poll out today he’s behind Romney nationally. And Santorum is within 3. Those are horrible numbers for an incumbent. Dole never approached Clinton in 96. Nor did Mondale come close to Reagan in 1984. Obama’s support is weak after the first 40%. So is Romney’s to be sure.
It’s probably going to be about the economy. It is that simple.
Obama is in better shape than he was 3 months ago. But I don’t share your sense of inevitability. As of Feb 29 I’d say Obama is favored. There are plenty of scenarios in which Obama loses. A few in which he loses badly. There are also some in which he wins and a few in which he wins big. There is no “Chosen One” by the elites this time. That makes this year interesting. In 08 Obama was chosen. In 2000 there was no way Bush was going to lose…and “they” made sure he won. I do not see any overriding elite impulse favoring either of these men. Sure the media is still by and large Obama’s lapdog. All that does at this point is keep him in the mid forties. It hasn’t helped him rise past 50%. and the Obama campaign has been masterful so far. Truly skilled. The result? Obama’s at 45%
No idea what the next months bring – maybe this is all the theater of distraction and Obama has been “Selected” again. Maybe once Romney wins the nomination the elites will bury him. But I see no evidence so far the indicates Obama is a sure thing. Today he a little bit more likely to win, but not a sure thing
Is there another large voting bloc out there for Obama ? I know the majority of AfAms will vote for him, but past that ?
I can’t think of any large group he hasn’t offended, except the UAW and the Teachers’..Are they going to be enough ? A lot of the students may stay home this time, the first group that voted for him in ’08, have or will soon, graduate, to a cheerless job market. Even union members have kids deployed, or unemployed, and many are Catholic. Same with the teachers,some of whom are Jewish and may support Israel. Wall St has a lot of influence, and cash for campaigns, but again, the regular worker bees down there are not doing as well as expected either..
I just don’t see where the votes will come from.
John, if you think my reason for saying Obama will be re-elected is because it’s “inevitable” and that he’s the Chosen One by the elite, that’s not it (though they do want him over the alternatives and that’s not inconsequential).
More to the point here, I don’t base my predictions on a day’s, week’s, or month’s events, on one primary’s results or one speech or current poll numbers. My view is long and my analysis deeper than that (by “deep” I mean, for instance, all I know about Obama and voter response to him, where Republicans are now in the political cycle, Romney’s appeal, alternative candidate appeal, and what Americans respond to and how — and my understanding of human nature). An example of the problem with the day-to-day way you analyze big picture events like how the general campaign and election will go:
Romney is Romney, he’s had a cushy life from day one, been in politics for decades, and he’s unlikely to change suddenly; it’s possible but unlikely because people, especially rigid lifelong-entitled people like Romney, don’t generally change and certainly not that quickly and substantially, even if his handlers got him to deliver a decent short acceptance speech eight months before the general election. Obama, who fared so poorly against Clinton in debates four years ago, will wipe the floor with 1%er Privileged White Heterosexual Mormon Man Romney.
I know the economy, in particular obvious elements like gas prices and inflation, typically turn elections. Guess what? ObamaCo (who’re “masterful” and “truly skilled” according to you, and I agree) knows that too. Gas prices have been sharply rising while everybody’s talking about birth control and ancillary nonsense like Santorum throwing up on JFK. Not a coincidence. Obama has a two prong strategy: distract and insist the alternative is worse and scarier; Barack Obama is con man and also a lucky man, the sort whose adversaries help him out even if they want more than anything not to. Americans are angry and they’re scared, and they feel an expanding deepening need; all Obama has to do is manipulate where that anger gets directed and manipulate the fear, and he’ll play on their need. Nothing in the world is stronger for human beings than need; every man and woman who’s been seduced in the history of human nature has been drawn in by the seducer playing into their need. I know he (and Axelrod and Plouffe et al) are masterful and truly skilled at doing it. This is their talent that they’ve honed. And I know, both, what Romney has demonstrated he is and is not capable of, and that the GOP’s power today to win the WH is as weakened as Democrats were in the years following Carter. And Obama has incumbent advantage, the unlimited funds and trappings and access of the President and the fact that people don’t want to change horses mid-stream especially when the water’s rising and the alternative horse’s advantages are nebulous at best.
Obama will win because too many American people are making the same kinds of bad choices they’ve made for years now, and Obama’s tapped into that.
Yes there is. Yunnies. Young Urban Narcissists. They’re wannabes, go-alongs, bullies, there are a lot of them, they have jobs and some income and expectation for their own futures, they’re influential in the provinces through family and old chums and Facebook, and Barack is still their guy.
That’s a very cogent analysis, Zal. It rings true…depressingly true. I think I’ll take a pill now.
“Yunnies”?! You just made that up, right? In any event, it does describe quite a large voting bloc (starting with OWS).
“Are you not reading the warning lables on your meds?”
Brilliant comment– NOT. Reads like something an ig-nor-ant tea partier might type out in between swinging their caveman club and drooling over their red meat…
Way to advance the conversation, and the understanding of what is truly going on- HA.
Keep on dumbing this place down!
Hi KC!
I’ve missed you; trust you’re well.
“Keep on dumbing this place down!”
We have Zal, who says WE-MUST-FIGHT-IN-AFGHANISTAN-if we-want-to-maintain-our-economy for that, KC. Do you share this view?
“Way to advance the conversation, and the understanding of what is truly going on
And what are you bringing to the conversation, KC? Where’s your analysis of “what is truly going on”?
“Reads like something an ig-nor-ant tea partier might type”
And that reads like something an ig-nor-ant tea partier might type. I know it’s lonely in the NC foothills, but you really need to try to control your love impulses toward me.
http://thehill.com/video/senate/213365-retiring-sen-snowe-attacks-political-paralysis-in-washington
Snowe’s impending departure from the Senate is a big loss for the polity. (The Dem Pty. will probably get the seat, so they can’t be shedding too many tears, I suppose.)
I like Olympia Snowe. She is moderate, which is a rare breed of Republican in this day and time. You know I’m a big CSPAN’er, so I’ve come to know and respect her work over the years. She was one of 8 Repubs who voted to repeal DADT. She understands women’s issues better than many, if not most Dem men, and she is pro-choice. She broke with the GOP to acquit Bill Clinton of perjury charges. She orginally voted for DOMA, as did many Dems, but voted against a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between 1man/1 woman. She voted to confirm both Sotomayor and Kagan and she has long supported embryonic stem cell research. I love the woman as a legislator, she has courage and class. I will miss her and I know many other liberals/progressives will miss her as well.
Interesting details about Snowe, Mouse. You’re a treasure-trove of politicians’ positions/voting records.
I’m just old, and a political junkie. I follow the work of the pols I like. I often remember their votes on issues that are important to me and I follow women legislators more closely than men because there are so few women in the U.S. Congress. 585 member in both houses, but only Ninety-three women serving currently, 76 in the House and 17 in the Senate. We are woefully underrepresented in the legislative body. Sadly, there have only been 238 women who have served in the U.S. Congress. that is very rare air for our gender and that’s why I support those women who support the issues that matter to me, regardless of their party. .
“Sadly, there have only been 238 women who have served in the U.S. Congress….”
That’s a shocking statistic! I, too, try to support women for legislative and political office regardless of party, altho’, concededly, I’m not as exacting on their policy positions. I draw the line at monstrous views/policy positions, but otherwise am tolerant because I believe in the ‘magic’ of sheer numbers. I like to think that once we have a critical mass of women in elective office, a lot of the women who currently suck up to the patriarchy will feel empowered enough to strike a more independent, pro-women, pose. That may be naive, but I’m willing to be naive on this issue.
Hey John, the discussion here about Islam is interesting and stimulating. But, you should — for your own protection — serously consider deleting the comments to preclude the fanatically “tolerant” followers of “the religion of peace” reigning down cyber hell-fire (or worse) on you. Sad to say, but their threats do, in fact, chill free speech (which is why they should be given no quarter, but there’s no hope of that under this multi-kulti, blinkered, PC administration).
Erratum: “…raining down cyer hell-fire….”
I realize that some here find Mitt Romney as a viable and acceptable candidate to carry the GOP water come November. But come on!
Mittens was asked for his position regarding the Blunt bill that is up for passage. This bill would allow employers to “pick and choose” the coverage for their employees based on their own “moral standard”.
At first Gov. Flip Flop said that he was not in agreement. But mere hours later his spokesman issued a retraction saying that yes, he was in favor of this odious bill and changed his answer only because he “did not understand the question”. Really?
How “difficult” was the question in the first place? It required only a yes or no answer but within a few short hours Mittens did an abrupt about face (or a double flip if you will) declaring an improper understanding of what was at stake.
What is at stake is the access to healthcare coverage overall. By allowing some ridiculous “conscience rule” to overcome the basic needs of the public at large it will encourage religious beliefs to trump medical attention. Does it get any clearer than this?
Mitt stands for absolutely nothing. Even Santorum, as crazy as he is, has stood for something regardless of how insane.
Not only does this bill permit discrimination against women, it also allows care to be withheld to all parties if the employer decides to eliminate costs owing to his/her own superstititious beliefs.
Unbelievable that Mitt would be held up as the “alternative” when policies like these are granted support over the health issues of the public at large.
“Yunnies” great description of a massively delusional group. Considering their inbred narcissism, will they even remember to vote ?
How many of us have been in the audience of a graduation ceremony and heard the speaker tell the graduates ‘they are the future’ ? Aside from showing a complete lack of originality, has the speaker actually looked at the graduates ? Scary .Tragically, the current crop does not have much to which they can look forward, at least in the near term.
If they don’t have math and science skills, the pickings are pretty slim.
I didn’t coin that, I’m not clever that way. A buddy of mine did, a few years ago, after I’d convinced him that this group exists. I love it because it’s not only a take on “yuppie” but has the added feature of sounding like “bunnies,” a cute but potentially destructive critter that’ll take the good stuff in your garden if you let ‘em.
Only if the weather doesn’t mess up their ‘do or there isn’t a competing really cool event. But in the meantime they’ll spread their “Obama’s the best we have and be afraid of the other guy” message near and far.
Sorry, that was me above on the Qur’an article from “The Atlantic.” Back to work; have fun, you all.
Rats Fio, you shouldn’t have de-cloaked your true identity! Here I was imagining that they mysterious commenter was a bloodthirsty Mohammedan Warrior, come to smite the “infidels” for our heresies.
Thanks for the article; looks fascinating. Will read this evening, hopefully.
JWS says – “I’ve never seen a tacit “front-runner” shoot his toes off with such regularity.” Oh, I don’t know – how quickly we forget. Obama himself was considered the “front runner” in 2008 primaries after 1 win in Iowa and then proceeded to shoot all 10 toes off his feet and 10 fingers off his hands over the rest of the primaries with – “bitter clingers” remarks; “where’s the arugula;” “you’re nice enough;” calling female reporters “sweetie;” thinking the USA has 57 states; not being able to bowl; Rev. Wright; the Mrs being “proud of USA for the first time”; not to mention LOSING every single big primary and not actually getting as many votes as the other candidate who people were practically threatening with bodily harm if she didn’t get out of the race.
Didn’t seem to hurt him in the race to the presidency.
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