Before this week I’d never eaten at Chick Fil-A. After this week I’ll never eat at Chick Fil-A.
There are only two nearby. One by USC and one across the street from Hollywood High. Neither are exactly convenient for me and the point of fast food is that it’s fast. Given the opportunity to dine at the Chick Fil-A near USC after some event I passed knowing they’d given money to organizations I find galling. It hardly seemed like a big deal at the time. Nope, my 6 bucks went to some other heart clogging, obesity inducing joint. I’ve also driven past Shell stations when I needed gas and chosen Pizza Hut over Dominos. Shell was up to no good somewhere at the time and if memory serves the owner of Domino’s and I disagreed about abortion rights.
I’ve no illusions here. AT ALL. No one at Shell missed my 20 bucks. And I did fill up somewhere. Who knows what the company that got my cash was doing in the depths of Africa. To add to the gray area I love my Apple stuff, even at a few generations old. We know working conditions for Apple’s Chinese employees could use an upgrade. So what gives? Am I a hypocrite? I guess. Sort of. Marriage equality is more important to me than Chinese workers. There. I said it. I don’t spend money at Chick Fil-A because I don’t want to participate in that – even in the slightest way. My “boycotts” are subjective and personal. I know this. They do help me remember that I have guiding principles in a gray world. But I’m not a fool. I bet a run through of my debit card statement over the past 6 months would produce a cornucopia of purchases from multi national companies who support those I do not. So I’m a bit uncomfortable with all the Smug High Horsery over a fast food joint. It all feels like agit prop theater.
The cold-blooded truth is Mr. Cathy has every right to his retrograde opinions. Further, he has the right to dump his cash into bigoted organizations. I have every right to skip his Waffle Fries. So I do. My position is really no different that those in the mobs who showed up today to buy chicken nuggets. They buy to make a point, I don’t to make a point.
However, when I saw the images of cars full of chunky Americans lined up, waiting for hours to make a statement via the purchase of a Spicy Chicken Deluxe Sandwich all I could think was…Well, we’ve come to a pathetic little pass haven’t we? Political pugilism via poultry.
Anyone who is newly upset about Cathy’s opinion on marriage equality has not been paying attention. What’s really going on here is that – once again – gay rights supporters got gamed by politicians. A couple of mayors and an alderman stated an intention that’s self evidently illegal. Conservatives got some red meat to chew…ironically in this instance. Then without thinking (do any liberals think anymore?) gay rights supporters got wound up because, you know, if Todd Palin ate there it must be bad! What followed is today’s anti-boycott, which will be followed on Friday by gay kiss ins – at which we’ll mostly see cute young gay men smooching at Chick Fil-A registers. (This will both enrage and excite legions of evangelical pastors.) As you know, once gay men reach forty they are sent out to pasture, also known as Palm Springs, or morph into Paul Lynde.
Then we shall retreat to our bunkers and await another dog whistle.
Meanwhile, the entire debate on marriage equality is degraded, sucked into the peculiar American insanity of industrialized food. There’s no dignity or honor in any of this. Jackasses on the Left, tweak dis-empowered, dumb asses on the Right into thinking buying corporate chicken sandwiches is empowering, which then provokes degrading idiocy on the Left.
In my book, Chick Fil-A supports awful, damaging organizations. Nevertheless, they get to sell chicken. Those who oppose how Chick Fil-A spends its profits get to raise hell – if that is how they think equality is achieved. It’s not. But people are free waste time if they like. Another, saner choice is to accept Cathy’s right to his opinion, avoid getting caught up in the asinine stunts of a Chicago Alderman, then do something productive and inspiring that does not center around dead chickens.
Final horrify thought: What if the C.E.O. of Long John Silver’s comes out in support of gay marriage? Will I have to gorge on popcorn shrimp combos to prove I’m for equal rights?
Related articles
- Chick-Fil-A Sandwiches Become Political Symbol (huffingtonpost.com)
- Chick-fil-A store breaks with founder to sponsor LGBT Pride (rawstory.com)
- This Chicken Fight Won’t Hatch Real Change (thecollegeconservative.com)
Well stated. I didn’t buy into the buycott today, just as I’ve been quietly perpetrating my own boycott of CFA for over a decade. I saw no reason to change my habits over this asinine BS. I took my stand on CFA years ago, and I’ll keep to it, while acknowledging that progressive activist gamed their way into making CFA franchise owners and Don Cathy a fortune today. The boycott won’t last anyway. Most of these people up in arms today are t-shirt slogan gay rights supporters. They’re not in it for the effect it will have (because it could have no real political or legal effect), they’re just in it for coolness of the gig. They’ll be back to buying their chicken breakfast biscuits right after the election, if not before.
Did you intend to type buycott in the first line? If so, good one! If not, also good one. If it’s okay with you, I’m adopting it as spelling of preference whenever I dig in my heels financially.
I did indeed use “buycott” intentionally. That’s the CFAers were calling their action yesterday. It’s always okay with me if people steal my stuff. You don’t even have to ask, though I do appreciate the acknowledgement.
In the words of T.S. Eliot, “Mature poets steal.”
The problem with this whole kerfluffle is it had no hope of changing anyone’s mind. It was merely an attempt to punish Don Cathy for using his right to free speech. I said at the beginning that I thought a boycott was a bad idea and might backfire.
I also said I hate these kind of things because I have to disagree with the side that I support.
“I also said I hate these kind of things because I have to disagree with the side that I support.”
This.
Prog fascism. Cathy, Adelson, Rush, et al. need to be silenced, but it’s wonderful how Maher donated $1 million, while Clooney and all the other Hollywood bimbos are to be praised for loudly supporting teh Messiah.
FOX is evil; NPR a little Shangri-La of the airwaves.
Before this week, I’ve hardly ever heard of Chick Fil-A. After this week, I know what it is, who is the CEO, what kind of food they serve. So a part of me can’t help but wonder whether Dan Cathy’s words were a clever PR ploy. After all, there is no such thing as a bad publicity.
Dan Cathy’s actions of lately are no different than his actions of the past, so I doubt it.
“Chick Phiellay” sounded like a golfer’s name to me.
Tamerlane, so did Dan Cathy to me.
Hilarious post, John! I’ve never eaten at CFA becuz I don’t like junk food; also, I have no idea where the one nearest me would be, the Valley I guess. myiq, you should post your utube here.
John, are you ready for a BCS championship? Hubbie & lakerwade are going to the Hawaii game.
You mean the one of me at the nudist resort?
LMAO!!! The cfa one, silly!
The guy deleted it.
But someone else saved it:
I am READY! 1 month to go! I think i am going to 2 games this year…love the experience, the rose garden walk, the olympic flame, traveller, nut job college students, plus one can take a train the entire way now…no CAR! but gotta admit i love kicking it on the couch with the TV more than the real event most times….i am old. Lynne and I get on the phone and watch together. Danger games are Oregon and… Oregon.
He’s just like every other dude who thinks he’s cool going off on the servers/waitstaff because he (1) didn’t get his order right even though it was the cook’s fault, or (2) those a-holes I see at Barnes & Noble laying into the cashier when they ask for their zip code to complete the transaction about the infringement of their right to privacy. Don’t bitch at the staff they are only following policy, if you have a problem bitch at headquarters. Now a video of him going to the Chik FilA headquarters (wherever that is) to stage a formal protest would be something worth seeing. I’m thinking something like Myers would do.
X, good point. I had heard of them, but never thought of them.
Apparently the boycott has been going on since last year. GMTA? Just finished writing a post at Uppity’s about this scheduled for morning.
http://boycottchickfila.com/
(This will both enrage and excite legions of evangelical pastors.)
I doubt it will cause much of a stir, even assuming it takes place.
I realize this joke is not clear…. the line should read “This will both enrage and arouse legions of evangelical pastors.”
hmmm…. this is a dangerous section of the thread for me as the only drag queen i find funny does BOTH drag and black face. Though the impulse behind gay (and straight) dudes doing drag and the impulse behind why most did black face is really not based in the same thing at all.
Note to self: put this on the list for a post next week… it’s worthy of some thought. though i must admit i kinda hate drag…i’m not sure what it has to do with being gay plus drag queens really imitate other drag queens with a series of very specific gestures and postures. which are all cliches at this point.
You know we’re pissed…. when we bring out the drag queens:
I will never understand why drag queens are so fun, but blackface is the ultimate in intolerance. For the record, I find drag queens sexist and offensive.
Honora, when I was in Savannah on a girlfriends’ weekend, we toured the sites from “Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil”. We went to see the famous “Lady Chablis”. What bothered me most was not how crude she was, and she was crude, it was that somebody who wanted to be a woman that badly thought so little of women. Bonaventure Cemetery, however, is one of the most beautifully spiritual places I have ever been. Glad I went there after.
Thank you, Honora. That’s my sentiment as well. Drag queens are the misogynist equivalent of black face. That one is acceptable entertainment and the other is not says volumes about our culture.
Well that’s not surprising; a lot of women think little of women and of themselves. Attacks on Hillary and Geraldine Ferraro and Sarah Palin, for instance, from women were oftentimes as vicious as men’s attacks, if not more so.
Note worthy here in our own yard is a woman posting about trolling for women and then actively supporting a Presidential candidate who’s a Mormon, a religion that actively subjugates women.
It’s possible drag queens, knowingly or not, demonstrate these conflicts of self loathing and self adornment as part of the act.
Okay COME ON! hahahahahaha! That’s well produced. The gays and the drag queens know how to get things done with no dough. Also that is the chick fil-a by hollywood high – and i bet they stole the shots on a sunday when the place is closed which makes it even better…
FTR, I am NOT offended by drag kings. Time to lighten up
While I agree with you that many of the most vicious attacks on women come from other women, Chabils has gone through years of intense hormone therapy and wants /has had (I don’t keep up on her status) very painful surgery to become a woman. Only to become the object of her own ridicule?
Men think it’s funny to dress up as caricatures of women. They make a lot of money doing it. See Tyler Perry. (The only man I have ever seen do it who actually sensitively portrayed a woman was Dustin Hoffman.) But women dressing up as caricatures of men don’t have much commercial success. Even Julie Andrews had to do the woman as man as woman thing. Whether the man is a straight guy or a drag queen. how men portray women says a lot about how the sexes view each other.
I’m looking forward to John’s future post. It will interesting to see how it plays out.
John, “Rastus” and “Moonshine” in blackface doing the “endmen” thing at the old minstrel shows were “well-produced”, too, and hilarious- for their white audiences. But not to black people. Which is why we stopped doing them in the 60′s. Gee, that was 50 years ago. Maybe it’s time to think about how women feel about men dressing up and making fun of us.
The lead drag of the video explains why they made it. Pretty interesting, and not a shred of hate
I went to a drag race once.
Agree pretty much all around, elliesmom, and I’m with you in looking forward to John’s post about it.
I know nothing about Chabils but I agree it’s curious when someone goes to those lengths only to end up the object of their own ridicule. I kind of think of Joan Rivers that way.
Jesus Christ, Zal, let it go. You don’t do jack shit out there on your “husband’s” farm to help people while you’re supported by him in your all-day-on-the-internet-lazy-ass. I actually teach at a majority black, majority-female community college in a major urban center, taking time out of my life where I don’t get paid to offer additional support. And I do it by choice. You’ve got nothing. You’re just a nasty-ass misogy-fag.
Shhhh!
Do not feed the troll.
Point taken, myiq, but it’s worth pointing out that Zal is as obsessed with me as Andrew Sullivan is with Sarah Palin’s uterus. And just as effective with it, which is to say completely flaccid and impotent.
What’s your meaning behind putting husband in quotes there?
Sorry dear, I love the flattery that there’s something about me worth supporting as a lazy ass, but I assure you neither my husband nor I are the sort to support a lazy ass do-nothing.
Well that sounds dandy but can’t say I’m all a-flutter in joy that someone who boasts about her activity in deception and bullying is teaching at a community college.
You’re calling me a fag?
Why you sweet talker, you.
Anthony, enlighten up, already. No one gets to tell me what I find offensive. If someone wants to support mocking half the population, that’s your business. But I’m still gonna call it as I see it: mean, hateful, and sexist.
You know what I find offensive? You folks who inject your absurd fears and vendettas into every fucking thing. It does genuinely offend me. I suppose it should make me sad, but it doesn’t. It makes me glad that this only a blog and you aren’t actually in my life.
Jay,
Too bad if women being “pissed” at you for the displaying complete insensitivity hurts your feelings. “Funny” is indeed in the eye of the beholder. Which people seem to get when it comes to racism, but so many, like you, are completely clueless when it comes to sexism and misogyny. “Not even a little hate involved says Anthony”. Try being on the other end of it because the hate just oozes.
Well, now you know ” we’re pissed”, too, Jay. But “there’s not even a little bit of hate involved”. Like there’s no hate involved when people make fun of gay guys. You all just need to lighten up.
Sorry for the double post. It’s all the piss on my keyboard..
..OR, you are a huge victim and it’s how you define yourself so you see misogyny everywhere, even where there is none, which leads you to turn every hurt feeling into an ever expanding vendetta, because vendettas make you feel powerful.
Now what are the odds we’ll agree about that? I’m thinking they’re slim.
Lola said to Zal: on your “husband’s” farm
That’s like referring to a woman’s “career”. Kind of surprised at you for that one.
Jay, many, many years ago I patronized a store with three older white saleswomen and one younger black saleswoman. One night as I shopped, the four of them were arguing about blackface, specifically “Amos and Andy.” The three white women kept insisting that there was nothing offensive about it, it was entertainment, all in good fun, lighten up. And the black woman kept trying to explain that, yes, it was offensive to her, the object of the inherent ridicule. This seemed to go on forever and I finally had enough, so I interrupted their “discussion” and said: Yes. It is offensive. She is standing right here telling you it’s offensive. She’s offended, ergo it’s offensive. What part about this is so hard to understand.
When the object of ridicule tells you that it’s offensive, it is. You have every right to ridicule anyone you want to. But that doesn’t make it any less offensive, less hateful, or less mean.
Wow, I never saw Drag Queens as sexist — I see them as an art form that is truly subversive of the patriarchal society’s definition of women. Women must wear crippling high heels, make up, intricate hair dos, binding clothes etc to be “feminine” — and here are men using all the things that society states women need to be “feminine” with many looking much more beautiful & glamorous (by society’s definition of feminine beauty) than most actual, biological women do. Drag Queens skewer society’s perception on what is “feminine” by taking the concept to ridiculous extremes. Thus, the entire art is one big FU to sexism, IMO.
I’m a fan of & have watched all seasons of RuPaul’s Drag Race and none of the queens struck me as hating women nor did most want to *be* women (there was one queen Season 2 and one in Season 3 who eventually started homo therapy, etc to undergo sex change operations). But most saw it as a job — a fun job as an entertainer . I don’t know about Chablis, per se (she’s never been on the show) and I do know there is sexism in the gay community, but there is sexism in all communities. I’d tend to see sexist queens as individuals who are sexist. I don’t think it applies to all in the community.
FYI I, of course, watched the RuPaul’s Drag Race season that featured Willam (the blonde/lead singer in the video — she was my favorite of that season, btw) and she released that video back in February before the current CFA controversy erupted, which is just more proof that the current CFA brouhaha is b.s. political theater — the Cathys’ views have been known for a long time — the pols are once again exploiting the LBGT community to rile up the base — which is why I’m appalled by it — if we let pols get away with denying — or even threatening to deny — businesses the right to operate because the CEO is against SSM, 2, 5 or 10 years from now it could very well be pols denying businesses the right to operate *because* the CEO is gay. It’s a very dangerous slippery slope that I refuse to go down no matter where my sympathies lie on the issue of SSM.
*Gah, I meant hormone therapy, not “homo therapy.”
Oh, btw, to clarify, I do think Drag is supposed to be offensive — but I see it as offensive to the patriarchal definition of what is “feminine.” I don’t perceive it as offensive to biological women based solely on their biology. Drag is men in full on paint, corsets, high heels & wigs — that’s a crack about society; not about women, IMO.
IMO, Emily Howard subverts the patriarchy more than any drag queen ever would or could (if he wanted to). JMHO, of course.
Uh, gxm — that’s a man — in drag. So, you’re actually proving my point, here. Emily Howard *is* a drag queen.
Now, some drag queens are better than others & some are plain old hacks. But then not every painter is Picasso. However, to put up a clip of a man, in drag, and state “Emily Howard is more subversive than any drag queen could ever be” is — gosh, I’m at a loss because I like you, and I don’t want to insult you — but I will say I don’t think you really understand what “drag” is — it isn’t just men dressing up in women’s clothing & lip syncing in gay clubs (although that certainly has its place & with the right queen you can get a damn good show that is just as subversive & offensive as all good drag is). You have every right to find something offensive — I’m not trying to argue against that. But you really shouldn’t use a man in drag to argue that drag queens aren’t subversive. So, I’ll just leave it at that.
Yes. I know that. He’s David Walliams of Little Britain. Emily Howard is one of his characters. He’s a man dressed as a woman making fun of a man dressed as a woman (a Lay-dee!) or, if you prefer, a man making fun of the stereotypes adopted by men to make fun of women.
IOW, he’s a drag queen and you really, really don’t get it. But thanks for, once again, making my point.
“When the object of ridicule tells you that it’s offensive, it is. You have every right to ridicule anyone you want to. But that doesn’t make it any less offensive, less hateful, or less mean.”
See, you think drag is ridiculing women because that’s what you want to see. It’s not ridiculing ALL women — it takes larger than life gender types and makes them even more absurd. The people I know who do drag are in NO WAY ridiculing women. They’re making fun of larger than life people who happen to be women. You never see a drag queen librarian for a reason. That there are female traits that you don’t like made fun of is completely your problem.
There’s also a whole other thread in the art of drag that has to do with taking back power from the people who hate gays — the same way blacks use the word ‘nigger’. It’s not something that I choose to do, but now that I understand it I can absolutely appreciate it.
The analogy to black face is completely off as it does nothing that I’ve described above.
And no — when someone tells me that they are offended, it is not THE WORD OF GOD. It’s one person expressing their sensitivities. I don’t have to agree with them and on this I most certainly do not.
Men are the brunt of the Emily Howard routine. Women, in all our cartoonish glory, are the brunt of the Chow Down routine. I didn’t realize the difference was so subtle that it would be missed. IMO, drag queens like the Chow Down crew aren’t even remotely subversive. They’re so mainstream conformist, it’s sad.
I just want to add that the David Walliams routine was the first time I’d ever seen a man turn the tables and make fun of the men who ridicule women this way. Nothing’s ever new so I’m sure it’s been done before, but it was the first time I’d seen it.
Love their creative protest here. Also, saw an interview with the blonde (William, I think) who explains how they come up with the idea to show them eating Chik Fil’A as their political protest. Kind of reminds me of something Dame Edna Everage would do.
Amen.
I posted my “lighten up” remark before a 12 hour day of work. I just came back to peek in to see how this was going. Insane. That’s how its going.
GXM17, true enlightenment is without judgement.
I’d rather eat Todd Palin than Chick Fil-A, but they all seem like pretty stupid nuggets.
Paul Lynde was gay?
The guy in the youtube clip above at the drive thru is awful.
He claims at the end he’s not gay. But if he were straight, he would have stopped his senseless tirade and asked that adorable redhead for her number.
Amen, angie! The fact that Cathy’s comments are several weeks old and were given to (1) The Baptist Press and (2) The Ken Coleman Show (values-based program) and not to the New York Times or or Newsweek or on Good Monring America tells me that there are people who go looking for crap to use to get us all stirred up and at each others’ throats- just like with the Trayvon Martin case.
The Chik Fil-A President didn’t announce anything new, and he did not state a new policy to stop serving gays, hiring them, etc. I just don’t see the big deal. The guy said what he believes. That’s his right- move on!
I think this little bit of theater has been used quite brilliantly to keep us distracted and divided. And the “left” has come off looking like intolerant brats.
I agree with gxm17 and Ellie’s mom. I have never enjoyed drag queens or their sexist, misogynistic behavior. I liked your story gxm17, about the saleswomen. It showcased the drag queen controversy here perfectly, IMO.
Maybe the gay guys could provide us with a list of “acceptable” claims of sexism or misogyny. We women just can’t seem to figure it out for ourselves./s
Yes, good idea.
This is NOT a feminist blog. Stop hijacking threads with your incessant bullshit. There are a thousand places you can go to talk about how everything in the world relates to misogyny, which is really just another way to always be talking about YOURSELF.
You’re making it impossible for people to talk about what John writes here — which is sometimes about feminist issues — BUT RARELY.
Making it IMPOSSIBLE. Hyperbole much Jay Floyd in LA? Jay Floyd in LA why don’t you write your own blog so you can be the big man in charge and yell at people in all caps and ban all the feminists. Also, I recommend a nice cup of tea Jay Floyd in LA. You seriously need to calm down.
Though I appreciate the cheap shot, Anonymous, this one is mostly just cheap. You think drag is sexist. Others don’t. Don’t throw up straw women. Lord knows I push the call ins on the show and let people hold forth here. Call in. It’s not like I’m rude to the guests on the show. I’d happily hear counter arguments to the one Jay made tonight.
Claiming the clip of the drag queens above is “sexist” is just silly. That is the problem with this argument. It’s degrades the real issue of sexism.
Note: the best “drag” I’ve ever seen was Lily Tomlin doing a man in The Search For Signs of Intelligent Life.
Steve Martin also did a hilarious parody of Lily Tomlin doing an uber-macho Steve Martin in ALL OF ME.
Of all the people in the world who may know what I need, Pie, I am certain you haven’t the first idea.
Good advice. Jay’s head is exploding.
1) From all y’all who find drag queens insulting to women, I’d like to hear exactly what about them is an insult. Then everyone else can decide for themselves whether that holds water;
2) I’d prefer everyone stop saying ‘you’re not allowed to hold that opinion!’, and switch to the much friendlier, ‘that opinion you hold is shit!’
3) If that drag queen video is offensive, then is Twelfth Night, too? When originally staged, it had men dressed as women, pretending to be women dressed as men.
“Men are the brunt of the Emily Howard routine. Women are the brunt of the Chow Down routine. I didn’t realize the difference was so subtle that it would be missed.”
Are you saying the “subtle difference” is, that while It’s permissible for men to be the brunt of a parody, women are off-limits?
When Monty Python had a dozen male Eartha Kitt impersonators running down a street, who was being brunted?
No. I’m saying that lampooning oppressive stereotypes is more subversive than upholding and perpetuating oppressive stereotypes. IMO, the Emily Howard routine is akin to the Clayton Bigsby character. They’re both effective satire.
Ridiculing the oppressed is neither funny nor revolutionary. Ridiculing the oppressor is powerful subversion and, when done well, very funny.
1) So, men are the oppressors, women the oppressees, so we’re allowed to lampoon men, but never women?
2) You’ve concluded that drag queens do what they do to perpetuate a stereotype instead of:
a) lampoon a stereotype;
b) just really enjoy dressing up and acting all campy;
3) When a butch lesbian dresses up like a boy, is that lampooning, perpetuating, or just how they get their (imaginary) rocks off?
1) Where did I say lampooning anyone wasn’t “allowed”? I have continually said: You have the right to ridicule anyone you want. And I, in turn, have the right to call you out on the sexism inherent in your ridicule.
2) I equate drag queens, male performers whose entire schtick is to ridicule feminine characteristics and stereotypes, with blackface.
3) I don’t have an opinion about what other people wear. Don’t care if men want to wear dresses. Don’t care if “butch lesbians” want to wear pants. We’re not discussing what people wear, we are discussing a form of offensive entertainment that is acceptable and comparing it to another form of offensive entertainment that is not acceptable.
What’s with the 20 questions?
I’m asking questions to better understand your position, as it was unclear to me. I’ve mentioned several instances of cross-dressing, to try and figure out what exactly about drag queens you find offensive.
You believe drag’s “entire schtick is to ridicule feminine characteristics and stereotypes” on par with racist parody. You still haven’t explained what specifically about drag offends you personally as a woman. No matter; ample grounds exist for me to reject your complaint against drag as unfounded.
I believe you err considerably when you assume that the purpose of the “ENTIRE schtick” is to degrade women. I’m sure that’s the last thing on a drag queen’s mind — the purpose is to HAVE FUN. And the one’s who are really good at it enjoy showing off (& making some dough) for others, who enjoy seeing it done really well. In the same way I enjoy working a horse in dressage, and also enjoy top riders who show professionally or at the Olympics. End of plot line.
Now, unless you have some special insight on the workings of the mind of the drag queen you’d like to share, drop the amateur psycho-analysis.
In any case, yours is not a sentiment shared by most women or men, straights or gays. The majority of people find drag amusing, silly, or perhaps a mockery of traditional sexual stereotypes. models. I find it an odd behavior that neither entertains, enlightens nor offends me; just one of a zillion odd behaviors, like Kilngon guilds, bonsai competitions, or side saddle aficionados, which remove not one shred of skin off my nose.
So, to launch a PC crusade against drag is a losing proposition, and will only cause you grief and friction. Lighten up.
“I believe you err considerably when you assume that the purpose of the “ENTIRE schtick” is to degrade women. I’m sure that’s the last thing on a drag queen’s mind — the purpose is to HAVE FUN. And the one’s who are really good at it enjoy showing off (& making some dough) for others, who enjoy seeing it done really well. In the same way I enjoy working a horse in dressage, and also enjoy top riders who show professionally or at the Olympics. End of plot line.”
Ya know, that explanation works very well for white blackface performers too. Yeah, makes perfect sense. The purpose was to just HAVE FUN. The only problem with your tidy explanation is that men (with their male privilege) are *having fun* at the expense of women (those oppressed by male privilege).
“Now, unless you have some special insight on the workings of the mind of the drag queen you’d like to share, drop the amateur psycho-analysis.”
I’m not “psycho-analysing” anyone. I’m saying that I, and other women (more than you can possibly imagine because it doesn’t fit into your androcentric world view), know perfectly well that women are being ridiculed and we find it offensive. I have no idea why a man would make a career out of mocking half the population (and the oppressed half at that) but I do know that it is part and parcel of the mockery and abuse that are heaped on women daily in our culture. I’ve lived my life being subjected to this cultural barrage daily, it’s my freakin’ existence. You don’t need to tell me to lighten up, if I let this crap get to me, I wouldn’t have a life so I do what most women do, I tune it out. But I won’t acquiesce in silence. And I will point out—whenever anyone feels entitled to tell me what I can or can not find offensive—that drag queens are the blackface of our misogynist culture. Socially acceptable mockery of an oppressed people. End of plot line, as you say.
“I’m saying that I, and other women (more than you can possibly imagine because it doesn’t fit into your androcentric world view), know perfectly well that women are being ridiculed and we find it offensive.”
gmx17~I am a women and I have never found drag queens to be offensive but I do see blackface as offensive. I don’t see them as the same. I would love to hear more about what it is that drag queens do or represent that is so offensive and threatening to women. I would love to hear some examples of what specifically a drag queen that you have seen in a club or on TV/movies that has been so offensive that you liken them to backface.
GXM, I am a feminist and I don’t find drag queens offensive nor do I perceive that they do it to mock women. Are there sexists drag queens? I’m sure you could find an example on YouTube. I have known a few drag queens and did not have the same experience as you. I thought they did it because they liked and enjoyed the accouterments: the make-up, the nail polish, the clothes, the heels, all of it. Do some of them present as unflattering caricatures and stereotypes? Yes.Given they were not actually women, tey were likely just imitating what they’d seen.The exaggeration is about showmanship, where everything is exaggerated, like a stage whisper. I do not see it the same as blackface. Drag queens (at least the ones I knew) wanted what women had. I found that ironic, but there it was.
I think we all need to heed what Dame Edna says at the 5:35 mark –
She finishes that thought, ends her bit, by saying she was born with a priceless gift, the ability to love at the misfortunes of others.
Yes, she does. but it’s tongue-in-cheek. I’m referring to the ‘we need more humor in these modern times’ remark.
I know, I’m just saying that her comic routine, in that clip, includes making fun of an older woman in the audience and then she ends by saying the ability to “love” at the misfortunes of others is a priceless gift, obviously a play on laughing at the misfortunes of others.
I think Dame Edna is funny and I liked the clip and agree with her.
Obviously it can be hard to laugh when people are laughing at our misfortunes or the misfortunes of those we feel kinship to, but it’s healthy.
“whenever anyone feels entitled to tell me what I can or can not find offensive”
Feel free to be as offended as you like by whatever you like. I’m entitled to tell you I find your outrage overblown, so I’m not gonna take it seriously. You failed to win me over to your case, because you declined to offer any proof or cogent arguments. You only attempted the hackneyed, bullying tactic of: ‘if I say it’s offensive, you don’t get to question that.’
“I have no idea why a man would make a career out of mocking half the population”
There you go again, assuming drag’s purpose is to degrade women. Start giving some proof to back up that accusation, or stop making it.
“(and the oppressed half at that) ”
Labeling women “the oppressed” and men “the oppressors” is hyperbolic and divisive. It’s a silly worldview that does not jive either with reality or the impression of most women.
“[Drag} is part and parcel of the mockery and abuse that are heaped on women daily in our culture. I’ve lived my life being subjected to this cultural barrage daily, it’s my freakin’ existence.”
Yeah, you so need to lighten up.
Today’s LA Times: “Feminism in an unlikely place: a transgender beauty pageant.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-linthicum-queen-usa-20120804,0,5674071.story
Tamerlane, I get it: You don’t get it. That doesn’t surprise me. IMO if someone can’t see the comparison of the same exaggerated stereotypes and pancake caricature that drag queens and blackface “artists” employ(ed), then you’re wearing patriarchy blinders. And, of course, how silly of me to think that if I’m offended when someone mocks my sex, my opinion should even count.
gxm, you’re wearing the blinders of radical, fringe ideology.
When you say I “don’t get it”, the implication is that I, for male oppressive reasons, refuse to acknowledge a glaring truth. That’s devious polemics. I gave you the opportunity to make your case, and you refused.
Under your twisted logic, my refusal to defer to your infallibility can be dismissed as ‘mansplaining’, which in itself is, again under your twisted logic, further proof of your patriarchy/oppression theory. That’s circular reasoning.
Yet you also failed to persuade many of the women who commented on this stream, including angienc, smalltown girl and SophieCT, whose comments & questions you avoided. Are you unable to shoehorn their opinions into your world model, or do you feel that this crowd isn’t yet ready for a lecture on the Stockholm Syndrome?
You expect the world to jump when gxm says ‘jump!’ If gxm says something is so, then it’s so, and anyone who doesn’t join in your anti-drag crusade is a … whatever.
That’s not how it works. You can make any statement you like, but you’ve got to back it up with facts and a good argument. Then the rest of us get to argue back, and decide on the merits. Your position on drag is meritless.
You’ve decided to “bow out” of the conversation. A wise decision, as in lieu of real debating points, all you brought to the table was endless “is so!”, radical-speak, and the all-too-predictable victim whine.
Your jargon and polemics mark you as one of those old-school feminist zealots who first railed against the system in the 1970′s. Have y’all ever stopped to wonder why you’ve convinced fewer and fewer people — men AND women — as time goes by, instead of more?
You might consider persuading people who disagree, instead of berating them. Until you’re ready to try that, don’t even bother wasting our time. Stick to your ever-shrinking circle of fellow zealots.
You know, Tamerlane, I’m glad you brought this up. It is the height of hypocrisy considering that gxm17 and elliesmom followed me around to two other blogs about this, doing their best to malign me. On one of them (the person who owns the domain) shut them down, and the other blogger shut down comments on the thread because they both went so far over the line that it became too tedious for the other visitors to bear.
I’ve kept my mouth shut since the day this post went up only because I was furious. But now I’m over it, centered, and can see it for what it is.
I’m not going to speak for anyone but myself, because as you can see when gxm17 spoke on behalf of “all women” some here and many on other blogs spoke out and told her (them) that they were wrong, so here goes:
I’m a gay man. I take offense to the offensive of these women that (to my sensibilities) are behaving like out of control harpies. The comments that gxm17 and elliesmom are trying to hammer home smack of hate. Maybe they hate men, maybe they hate gay men, maybe they hate themselves or maybe they only hate drag queens, since they take such offense to the video that began this whole drama. I could care less. The fact is that the majority of people who have responded do not find that video offensive, and are instead in complete disagreement with the shrill ravings that have come forth. Rather than look within and try to enlighten themselves, they just forge right ahead with their offensive. it only makes them look foolish, and I don’t believe that they truly are foolish. Just ignorant.
It is very telling that there have been no responses to women who beg to differ with their crusade. Instead, the assault goes forward, laughably at this point. I’ve concluded that even though Stevie Wonder can see what’s going on here, these two will never have even the slightest glimpse; their myopia is that severe. But that doesn’t mean that the rest of us are as blind to their broken point of view.
I really hope this topic will be raised again. I would be happy to participate in an ongoing discussion to help broaden some of the narrow minds that are making such an interminable racket.
It’s interesting to me that folks have posted such varied comments about what drag queens want, or don’t want. (And no one can seem to agree.) Apparently in an attempt to explain the drag queen mindset, all the while missing the *cultural* point. People’s heads are so wrapped around the male default that immediately they have to start at the male drag queen’s standpoint. My point has never been about individual male drag queens, who I’m sure all have completely different reasons and opinions on what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. My point has always been: Our culture accepts stereotyped mockery of one oppressed group and not of another. I don’t see drag queens as “the problem,” I see them as a symptom. One of many. It’s really pretty simple. Trust me, I don’t lose sleep over it. There are too many symptoms, and I’d never getting any sleep.
FTR, transwomen can’t be drag queens, only men can be drag queens. Bio or trans women who choose to mock drag queens are called faux queens. *Faux* queens. Now that says it all right there. We can’t even dress up like female clowns and be authentic. Only men can do that.
Thanks for the discussion, but I’m going to bow out, as it’s really run its course. Besides, I’m sure the host will breath a long sigh of relief. Enjoy the rest of your weekends.
I think you’re a class act, gxm. I may not agree with you, but I appreciate the way you express yourself. It makes me want to be on your side. You at least made me think – I suppose that’s something.