Last update on this post: The post debate spin is all about Biden’s smirking and his 2 outright lies – the libya attack lie and the lies about his war votes. Today Cutter and Biden made Obama’s benghazi trainwreck worse. All CNN’s flash polls seem to favor Ryan. This is all so effing interesting…
7: Flash response on CNN and Fox is that Biden’s smirking and laughing detracted. Will Biden’s assholery be the story of this debate? He was astoundingly dickish through out.
6: Debate in total – my take – Biden won. No idea how Biden’s complete assholery will play in the general public. And lord knows – he was a massive asshole. It struck me that Ryan’s debate prep was off. He’s a wonk, he needed to be a wonk. Biden ripped off things that sounded realistic. Ryan could have responded with “stats”, he chose to tell heart warming stories. Also, Biden nailed the abortion answer. In short: Biden’s prep and plan worked, Ryan’s was a mistake. Biden’s experience playing the room was too overwhelming for Ryan. Biden knows how to do the show. Ryan was a very smart congressman he did better as the debate went on…and it seemed to go on…and on. Ryan’s closing statement was solid. I’d guess Biden righted the Obama ship a bit tonight. Now: Disagree with me if you will. I give my take only.
5: 2 half hour – BIDEN IS A HUGE ASSHOLE. And I think it’s a winning strategy. The moderator is in the tank for Biden.
4: We are 1/3 of the way into this – Biden is winning by virtue of being older. Ah 47%!!!! He said it! Biden is popping off! Biden is being a complete asshole… and my opinion is that is it working…at least so far.
Update 3: Biden is lying…a lot…with a disgusting smile on his face.
Update 2: Biden did, in fact, come out swinging. Ryan looks a bit nervous. He too is swinging. Martha Raddatz is showing her bias early too.
Update 1: Paul Ryan is back stage working out. Joe Biden is back stage mixing a martini.
I’ll add to this post later as tonight’s debate unfolds, updates and such. For now I’m reserving this spot to get your assistance with an election mad lib for the weekend. Please supply any or all of the following in the comments – 3 nouns, 3 plural nouns, 3 adjectives, 1 proper name, 1 place, 1 TV Show, 1 verb ending in “ing”, 1 relative (like “great Aunt”), 1 sport, 1 person (who can be fictional) and 1 animal. Don’t feel the need to supply everything on the list. Throw in a word or two in. I’ll then chuck every suggestion into a hat, pick at random, and finish the mad lib for our amusement. Come back later for my take on said debate as it unfolds. Meantime, below is the only shot I got of Bob Barker at the blessing of the animals last week. He was not feeling it this year but was mostly patient.
I’ll start… Dog, blanket, wallet, tacos, cities, quarterbacks, Taco Bell, Fringe, strolling, step mother, softball, Dean Martin, bluebird.
throw in one or two… who cares…right? Lets be silly this weekend.
sushi, trying to sell our house again, doggies, cool weather, calling family, work and video games… that’s my weekend. sorry, but this whole economy getting better is crap when we have no competition for our house and yet it hasn’t sold. only one home in our price range has sold since april here. (we have had it up for sale since the end of april). i can see why people walk away from their homes when they have to leave for work, but they can’t sell their homes… this is absolutely frustrating…. i don’t want to have to become a landlord when this is a home and a town we would never want to come back to.
bottle, boat, phone, t.vs, doors, coats, Nelson, Berlin, Bones (tv show), skyping, Roseanne, zebra.
I have to say it…Who’s a good boy?
Car, nesting, hippies, Joseph Fiennes, cousin, cow.
Blessed, Grandpa Finnegan, kneeling, hat.
chrome, blood, afro-sheen
chaps, thongs, eclairs
stunted, nefarious, jejune
Crankcase Oil
The lounge at the Kankakee Holiday Inn
The Outer Limits
kibbitzing
mammaw
hurling
L. Ron Hubbard
Tuatara
Rofl. Show-off!
“Tuatara”?
I’m sorry, is that a vagina shaped crown?
Not good optics.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1012/82296.html
I hope tonight is one of the most hilarious debates ever.. I need some bathos to go with the pathos.
he does look goofy.
Nor this: http://hillbuzz.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/tumblr_maein4GOhU1rg3cspo1_1280.jpg?cda6c1
I guess it depends which picture you pick: http://hillbuzz.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/PaulRyan.jpg?cda6c1
The first of those photos in the politico piece is tres goofy; I’m surprised he approved that for inclusion in the Vogue piece. The other one is OK.
The “Hey Girl” one linked by Run is hot.
Obamacrats are just silly if they think Ryan’s youth and virility aren’t pluses for the Romney ticket. Given his budget creds and his articulateness, he’s no mimbo. If they don’t get that, I don’t understand what’s happened to their political acumen.
That picture of Biden eating two ice cream cones at the same time is priceless.
they want to limit our big gulps and yet you got joe and ob eating all the ice cream they want and also bbq and hamburgers… they just don’t get that they never lead by example. they may not be obese, but they are trying to say we all may become that way, so they limit what we can eat, but they don’t have to limit what they eat. totally hypocritical…
Bob Barker is the cuuuutest doggie.
Crane, Tebowing, here comes honey boo boo, hockey, polar bear.
I vote for “Tebowing”
5-hour energy, basil, little notzees, rambunctious, “666 Park Ave.”, twice-removed second cousin, spluuging, Sharon
3 nouns – jumper cables, box wine, dental floss
3 plural nouns – apples, grenades, prophylactics
3 adjectives- glib, lusty, swarthy
1 proper name – Anthony
1 place – Dublin
1 TV Show – The Big Bang Theory
1 verb ending in “ing” – fucking
1 relative (like “great Aunt”) – great grandfather
1 sport – boxing
1 person – Zaldonis
1 animal – manatee
This is upsetting:
“Trust me. I don’t trust you anymore.” Ouch.
The sociopath obama staring off into the distance while the grieving mom cries on his shoulder. Sick.
3 nouns:
Rat; House; Television
3 plural nouns:
Lawyers, guns, money
3 adjectives,
Short, stocky, slow-witted
1 proper name,
Thelonious
1 place,
Lubbock, Texas
1 TV Show,
The Dating Game
1 verb ending in “ing”,
flying
1 relative (like “great Aunt”),
First cousin, twice removed.
1 sport,
Dwarf tossing
1 person (who can be fictional) and *
ManBearPig (aka Al Gore)
1 animal
Sloth
I vote for “The Dating Game”
Best.Show.Ever.
“VP Candidate Number Two: If my body was a middle eastern country that you wanted to invade, which country would I be?”
ring, window, stove; coupons, refrigerators, bones; wonderful, fabulous, enlightening; Doris; North Dakota; You Bet Your Life; spinning; step father-in-law; canasta; Ed Sullivan; basset hound.
I vote for “Canasta”
3 nouns – button, bottle cap, douchebag
3 plural nouns – brushes, books, tits
3 adjectives- moist, parsimonious, condescending
1 proper name – Samir
1 place – France
1 TV Show – Major Crimes
1 verb ending in “ing” – felching
1 relative (like “great Aunt”) – half sister
1 sport – pole vaul t
1 person – Joe Biden
1 animal – wolverine
Why is Biden laughing while Ryan is talking about terrorism?
cuz they already offed bin Laden — there is no more terrorism.
My favorite part so far was Martha Raddatz saying “Let’s move to Iran. I’d really like to move to Iran.” Biden seems to be laughing alot and Ryan seems to be smirking at him.
sorry that was me
I’ll drive you to the airport, Martha.
How many times did Biden say “Bibi”?
I think 100?
I was listening on radio — did Joe rub his finger across his lips when he said “bibibibibibi”?
Biden is being a total asshole and…it’s working.
When Ryan made that joke about the Biden knowing what it feels like when the words don’t come out right, then chuckled under his breath that was kinda goofy…good joke but he ruined it with the laugh IMO.
The vibe I’m getting from Biden is that he just doesn’t take Ryan seriously, he’s being a total douche but it is kinda working I think.
Wow JoJo is a fucking dick.
3 nouns – house, Venus, table
3 plural nouns – elephants, donkeys, politicians
3 adjectives- dependable, felonius, purple
1 proper name – Bilbo Baggins
1 place – Rivendell
1 TV Show – The Incredible Hulk
1 verb ending in “ing” – riding
1 relative (like “great Aunt”) – sister
1 sport – caber tossing
1 person – Emily Post
1 animal – chipmunk
She needs to get a hold of Biden. He interrupts constantly.
She has no interest in keeping him in line. They think it works for Obama.
Ryan kinda sounds like Beavis when he laughs.
I read that Obama went to Raddatz wedding or something, so my guess is she’s in the tank for Biden.
I don’t know who is laughing more during this…. Me or Biden.
The whole thing is pretty.absurd.
“Ryan kinda sounds like Beavis when he laughs.”
That makes sense, cuz Biden’s a butthead.
Nouns: bed, laptop, iPod
Plural nouns: Media, data, women
Adjectives: odious, nefarious, abhorrent (synonyms all, but reminders of Joe Biden)
Verb: obsessing
TV Show: Leave It To Beaver
Place: Alamo
Person: Andrew Jackson
Sport: Curling
Animal: Border Collie
Relative: Grandmother
I only got to see the last half hour because of a power outage, which I’m sure was an act of God.
My take: Biden’s assholery will not play well, but when it came to talking about the abortion issue and the Supreme Court, he could have ALMOST made me vote for Obama.
Ryan did a fabulous technical job… but he was in a college debate. His presentation is too green, and once again — the abortion issue combined with thinking about the Supreme Court makes him look like a grinning devil.
Ryan just learned to never attempt a rational debate with a dry drunk.
One thing that struck me: when asked, ‘why not do in Syria what we did in Libya?’ he said ‘for one, Syria is five times larger, geographically, than Libya.’
Libya 679,399 square miles
Syria 71,502 square miles.
Uh yeah, I was thinking that Syria looks so much smaller than Libya on a map.
I think if one were reading a transcript of the debate, Biden would be the clear winner. But I can’t see the undecided voters liking any of his theatrics. Also, Ryan had a strong finish.
nowadays though, people would have watched this on tv or streaming mostly. they wouldn’t listen on the radio or read the transcript as much as maybe they would have. so because of all the tv or streaming watching, biden looked like a jackass.
I’m sorry – I’m watching on dvr, and a) Biden just said the intelligence community told them something that the same said community said the exact opposite just today on Libya; 2) I think he actually has been drinking! Why is he laughing like a hyena when they are talking about a nuclear armed Iran??????
Ok – just looked at comments above. I’m sorry – again – I’m not objective, but Biden’s outright laughing during the discussion of Benghazi and Iran was startling and beyond inappropriate. I didn’t think Biden would do anything weirdly inappropriate, but he did.
Wow – were you all watching the same debate I was? Ryan’s description of how much Romney cares for 100% of Americans was compelling and the line about “I know Biden knows that there are times things come out of your mouth the wrong way.” And, Biden says – I mean everything I say. REALLY?? Biden then goes off on his own struggles? REALLY – the guy who gives 1% of his salary away next to Romney who gives 15-30%? Wow. Biden does seem like a complete asshole.
Talk about lying. I can point out 4 specific lies that Biden just told and debate for me isn’t even half over. 1) on Librya; 2) on Iran; 3) the IG report about the stimulus plan; 4) the green bankruptcies that occured. Plus, the laughing is really annoying!!
In fact, Biden’s guffawing is now all I can think about. I’ve stopped trying to spot where they are both wrong or completely lying. I am a policy wonk and I can’t even pay attention to what they are saying because he seems off his rocker. Wow – John. I gotta disagree. I don’t think anymore that he came off as an asshole so much – although that was part of it – he seems really off his gourd. I have to wonder how many people are saying – is THIS the guy who’s also in the west wing all day?
OMG – now he’s reminding everyone how effing old he is. Again. “Tip O’Neil?” Really? I have to say, I think Radtych or however you spell her name is being relatively fair.
Are kidding? Every time Ryan finally got on track with a good jab at obama, she’d say “let’s move on to another subject.” She gave Biden about 50% more time, and let him interrupt at will. Also, a few times, she gave her own opinions on the subject.
Well – ok, granted. I thought she might actually answer Biden’s questions for him, so my threshold is low. Oops – no lie – literally as I’m typing this just saw her start debating Ryan for Biden on defense, so there goes that theory.
it did seem more like an interview than a debate. i didn’t mind it too much except when she didn’t give them the time they were supposed to get to answer the question. then the interview format doesn’t match the debate format at all.
Really looking forward to seeing the abortion question because up to now, I think Biden seems unhinged. It’s one of the few things though that independents don’t vote on, though.
personally, i am tired of the abortion question. they only bring it up every 4 years and so to me it is a wedge issue used to get the women’s vote or divide women. i think they swing this fish in front of women every four years but it won’t change no matter who’s president. when it is a dem, they don’t bother to shore it up so it doesn’t have to be an issue anymore because they want to use it every 4 years to scare women. and when there is a republican, it hasn’t changed. infact, most of the limitations that states have put on it, have been in the last 3 1/2 years, so really ob and dems aren’t doing a damned thing to protect our choice. i think at this point a woman is stupid to only vote on this issue because the dems are just using us but never actually protecting our choice… never!!!
Hmm – who knows, but here’s one very scientific poll: [CNBC POLL RESULTS] Who do you think won the VP Debate? Paul Ryan: 56%, Joe Biden: 36%, Neither: 8% As a number of people on twitter noted – Biden’s cackling is making me physically uncomfortable.
Have to say – this guy Ryan knows his stuff about everything under the sun, including the fighting seasons in Afghanistan. OMG and Biden is talking about how much we’ve trained Afghan soldiers who are filling in for the job (!!!!) – the same ones who keep blowing up our soldiers (in, I guess, friendly attacks) every other day. As Biden says (in VERY LOUD VOICE SO IT IS MORE RIGHT): “AFGHANS TO DO THE JOB; AFGHANS TO DO THE JOB!!”
Nobody knows what either of them are talking about, but the factoid of the fighting seasons made Ryan sound well-informed on the subject, and Biden ignorant. The shouting was just plain embarrassing.
Biden acted a perfect fool tonight. One of those smarmy professional Irishmen who give the real Irish a bad name, God love him, and bless his heart etc etc…The winks and nods at the moderator, implying they were on the same side, which of course they were, were distasteful.
Looking at even the died in the wool Obama diehards in the press, they thought Biden’s buffoonery (my characterization) was severly off-putting:
Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza: “Ok. I have decided. I find the Biden smile slightly unsettling.”
PBS’ Jeff Greenfield: “Biden has always had a smile that at times is really, really inappropriate.” [Yeah, Jeff - because he's usually drunk or on his way to drunk]
The New York Times’ Ashley Parker: “Biden’s grin is Chesire Cat caliber.”
Movie critic Roger Ebert: “Joe! Stop smiling and laughing!”
Comedy Central’s Indecision: “If this keeps up much longer, Joe Biden’s going to sprain his laugh muscles.”
“BIDEN IS A HUGE ASSHOLE. And I think it’s a winning strategy.”
Then you would be wrong. In spite of what the media and Obama supporters have been saying for the last four years, the loudest one who acts like a bully is not the strongest one. They’re just the loudest. Nobody mistakes an asshole for a leader. That’s going to really resonate with the American people.
Ryan really didn’t kick Biden’s ass, Biden self destructed to the sound of his own mocking laughter.
IMO, Biden’s “be the biggest, must disrespectful douchebag in the history of televised POTUS/VP debates” worked in that it got Andrew Sullivan & the MSNBC crew off of the ledge after last week’s Denver debate. But it didn’t change one undecided/swing voter’s mind. Ryan did enough to keep the GOP base happy & came off as a credible VP to the undecided/swing voter’s although he probably didn’t change even one of their minds either. So it was a draw, which means overall Romney won.
You all may be right. The sneering Biden may do him in. It’s all anyone is talking about. And the audience for the “sneers” will be much larger than the debate itself. Flash polls at CNN all give the “win” to Ryan by 5 or so.
I’m betting the lie jojo told about the libya attack. is the REAL thing that does them in. Attacking the spooks on national TV is not so smart. And Biden just outright lied. It was kinda breathtaking.
Yes. That also distracted me from the outset and I wondered what that was about. Because Biden has to know that the intel community just testified to the exact opposite, like, this a.m. He can’t have been THAT cloistered. Something really seriously weird is going on with this Benghazi thing and in a sane world that cared about important things, his outright lie about that at the beginning should be the thing that craters this debate for him.
Like I texted you during the debate, tonight was the first time I found myself disliking Biden. Buffoon isn’t a fatal title. Rude fucking asshole may well be.
Biden’s boorish, eccentric behavior is a huge minus with women and indies — the sneering, arrogance, condescension and finger pointing did not go over well. Surprised by how many commentators were honest enough to admit this.
That’s interesting, Anita. It addresses style, which obviously is important, but how about substance? Do you have a sense of whether Paul Ryan’s comments about abortion rights is a minus, huge or otherwise, for women and independents?
It’s interesting, also, that none of the women regulars here, who have been Hillary supporters, raised that in this thread. Only Jay, who has been attacked by feminists here in the past for being insensitive to the way women are treated, raised Ryan’s stark assertion about abortion as a concern. Jay also was the only one who pointed out the connected issue of Supreme Court appointment our next President may have a shot at.
Correction: Jay wasn’t the only person who mentioned abortion, he tried to raise the issue for discussion.
i was thinking the same thing about the libya thing. it was almost like biden was so in a bubble that he didn’t hear about the hearing where there were documents revealed that said libya embassy asked for back up. that was weird for biden to be so uninformed about the most current of events and the hearing had paper evidence on this. so either that lamb lady never told anyone higher up about these letters, or biden and ob knew about it and just didn’t do anything about it.
this is to zal, about women not talking about the abortion issue, well as a woman, i am just tired of it. it is a waste of time. (i talked about it a little above) they only bring it up every 4 years, it is used a wedge issue. it is used by democrats to scare women to vote for them, it is used and used and used, never changed by republicans nationwide, and yet never bolstered by the dems when they are in charge just so they can use it to scare us every 4 years. it is a crap throwaway issue and there is more to women’s issues than just abortions, like the economy. it is a red herring and i am sick of women falling for it as a main campaign issue when it is just used for our vote. it is stupid. and the states are doing more harm to our choice than the federal government and the states have done more harm to it in the last 3 1/2 years during ob’s presidency. so basically, if the dems refuse to shore it up every time they are in charge then i deduced that this issue is stupid and used to get our vote and that is it. that’s why for me and probably lots of women this issue is a waste of campaign time. we refuse to be used by it and their scare tactics.
Wow – so not that I think pundits have their finger on the pulse of the nation, but they usually know what the innards of campaign thinking is and virtually to a one, they seem to think that Biden’s antics were about appealing to their base and giving them red meat. WOW, Just WOW. Do they really think at this point in the race they need to shore up the Dem base so much that they can let Biden really come across like the crazy uncle in the attic. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like it.
I’d like to hear some feedback on the abortion discussion in the debate tonight. Are people not mentioning it because it strongly suggests that Obama would be a better choice between the two?
Though there are many talking points in this election season that I don’t believe, I do believe that the balance on the Supreme Court is important. And yes, adding one or two conservatives in the next four years is not what I’d like to see at all. I found that comment by Biden, particularly when juxtaposed against the topic of abortion, compelling.
I did mention it above – that no one votes on that issue other than a portion of the hardcore democratic base so sort of a waste of time to discuss. Everyone knows where the parties both stand on this. You either think it’s important and vote on it, or you don’t. And, about 85% of the American public doesn’t vote on that issue. And, for me – It’s about # 35 on the list of 50 priorities and I only vote on my top 5 priorities, so yeah – not worth the time.
…and the Supreme Court?
Yes . . . ?
I take it that issue isn’t in your top five.
Question makes no sense to me. The “Supreme Court” isn’t an issue in and of itself, so it’s not even in my pantheon of priorities.
Some of the more conservative judges on the court rule against expansion of government power in the areas of criminal justice and civil liberties while some of the “liberal” ones rule in favor of the expansion of government power in eminent domain and wiretapping, for example. And, you can never predict how a judge is going to rule over his/her lifetime based on which party’s president picks him/her. Souter was picked by HW Bush and was one of the most consistently “liberal” justices. O’Connor was the jurist who wrote majority opinions upholding abortion rights and affirmative action and she was appointed by Reagan. The Warren Court was so renouned for “liberal” opinions that he could be an honorary black person, and Warren was appointed by DDE. And, I’m sure I don’t have to remind people about Roberts’ Obamacare decision. So, trying to game how the Supreme Court is going to rule many, many years in the future based on how the makeup is affected by the President is a silly guessing game that each party tries to use to whip up its base one way or the other every 4 years. Its a fool’s game to play it; I don’t.
I thought Biden gave the answer that is closest to what I would want to hear- in that he will not impose his (my) religion’s rules on the entire country.
That being said- I thought to myself- What the hell does abortion have to do with the economy OR national security? Which is what I thought this debate was supposed to be about? Though I could be wrong there. It just seemed Radditz threw a bone to the rabid dog.
That issue and the SCOTUS one that they tie in with it? Well, I am no longer responding to that big stick anymore. I am ashamed I let them bully me with it all those years. Roe is not going anywhere anytime soon. Both sides would lose the club they use to bludgeon women every election cycle.
What the heck? that was me above. WordPress has never done that to me before lol.
Scenario: obama re-elected with a GOP HOuse & Senate; Congress reduces the number of future SCJs to 7; Ginsberg and Breyer croak; Roe overturned 4-3.
Hmm – Tamer – and an asteroid could hit the earth too. (I guess we wouldn’t have to pay our debts back then)
as a woman, i answered this above about two posts above at kanaughty says:
October 12, 2012 at 10:35 am. check it out. basically, it is a stupid issue, and i am sick of hearing about it as a woman because it is just used to scare us to vote for dems, that is it…
Imma gonna go back to ignoring you Run, because you genuinely don’t see anything in your peripheral vision – only what you want to see.
I stand so warned
Although, now that i think about it, if people are going to ignore you, don’t they just ignore you, rather than warning you they are going to ignore you?
BTW: From Biden – “my whole career has been about leveling the playing field and treating the middle class the same as the upper class.” Uh huh. So, what was that bankruptcy bill about Biden that you sponsored and pushed when you were in the Senate – you know – the one that has worsened the housing crisis for the middle class and ensured that students were kept in debt servitude for the rest of their lives. But, the one that let Citibank and MBNA go after people in perpetuity for their wages.
So what’s your equation there. If you borrow money you should pay it back unless it’s a LOT of money and you can’t?
Um – not sure what you are asking. Bankruptcy law for hundreds of years has been about freeing yourself from debts you can’t pay back. Doesn’t matter whether a lot or a little; it’s about whether you can or can not pay it back and whether you can get a fresh start.
Biden’s bankruptcy bill made it much harder for individuals to avail themselves of the benefit of bankruptcy protections, but allowed corporations to keep the protections they always had because all the banks headquartered in his state said too many deadbeats weren’t paying back their credit cards or student loans – the same people they were supposed to be evaluating for their ability to pay and pricing in the risk. (In other words, continuining to protect finance companies from the losses incurred by their bad decisions, continuing to shield corporations in bankruptcy, but screwing consumers – what the power democrats have really been about).
Excuse me Jay, but I actually have a consumer bankruptcy practice & what you just wrote is as dismissive & out of touch as someone who characterizes people enrolled in government assistant programs as “welfare queens.” The vast majority of people who file bankruptcy are people who lost their job, sufferer a major illness or who suffered some other serious financial setback. These are not people who just “borrowed A LOT” buying themselves caddies, furs & diamond rings — they were putting food on the table and keeping the lights on after some major event prevented them from earning the salaries they previously had. That is why they are called the “honest but unfortunate debtor” (and, in fact, people who commit fraud are *not* entitled to the fresh start bankruptcy provides). Furthermore, the rise in consumer bankruptcy filings over the last 15 to 20 years is directly connected to the lending boom spurred by the extension of credit to vulnerable consumers (young people, lower income, minorities, the elderly) under what can only be characterized as predatory terms.
And Joe Biden *is* responsible for a major “Fuck You!” to the middle class with the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005 that *he* pushed through at the behest of his political backers in Delaware and to the benefit of the credit card companies. The Act made it more expensive for people to file and puts burdensome and arbitrary restrictions on who can file. I wouldn’t vote for a ticket with Biden on it even if I wasn’t an ABO voter because he is the epitome of the pol who “talks” like he’s fighting for the middle class but who actually works for the big money guys. Run’s right — he’s a total hypocrite whose actual voting record/policies have hurt the 47% he claims to care so much about. Of course, for people who don’t know what they are talking about re: consumer bankruptcy, I’m sure Joe Biden’s bullshit sells well.
Other than the sharp language directed at Jay, I agree with Run’s and Angie’s comments re bankruptcy law and policy, and Biden’s anti-consumerist role in legislating in that realm. Not for nothing is he widely known as “Credit Card Joe” — he’s a faithful lapdog for Delaware’s financial behemoths.
With the same caveat, I also agree with Run’s comment about abortion and SCOTUS politics, especially the point about abortion not being an electoral concern for most people. Heck, if it were, we wouldn’t have had Reagan and the two Bushes as presidents.
After all, Biden is the Senator from the great state of MBNA.
The Democrats talk a good game, but are hypocrites when it comes to action. Look at Elizabeth Warren, who says she’ll fight for the little guy, yet has spent the past two decades representing dozens of big corporations who’ve hidden behind Ch. 11 to avoid paying pension & disability benefits. Never once has she represented the victims.
Though now recovered, I would have been a candidate for bankruptcy over the past three years. I didn’t do it because I think it is wrong to not pay back your debts.
That a couple of the gals above are highly invested in thinking otherwise is fine.
I’m only invested in pointing out that Biden – who is trying to get us to reelect him – has been in the back pocket of banks his whole career (which means basically his whole life). And, the bankruptcy bill was his big sloppy final wet kiss to them. So, the hypocrisy in acting like he wants to treat main street better than wall street is as crass as his Benny Hill performance last night.
The phrase “power democrats” is an unusually perceptive one. Can I steal it? It expresses a ton of meaning in jsut two words.
Oh, please – steal away Andy.
I will say that I think my original suspicions may prove to be right, that most Americans tuned out early on in this debate, not just because it was wonkish, but mostly because Biden was just uncomfortable to watch. And, the claims by Biden about Libya will the the gift that keeps on giving in the news after this . . . for the Romney campaign.
I wasn’t expecting Joe Biden to be the major asshat that he was in this debate, he really took it to another level. The only justification for it that I can guess is that perhaps Biden went out there to see how negative and confrontational he could be as a test run for how Barry is going to have to perform in the 2nd Presidential debate. Like I said earlier, Biden can afford to look like a fool in ways that Obama can’t…so Biden went out there and ranted and took one for OFA. Biden advanced the narrative that Romney/Ryan are hypocrites with outdated ideas who are out to screw the middle class. Had Biden behaved with a little bit more decorum and gravitas, he might’ve won this one.
By the end of it I almost felt bad for Ryan, who I think was prepared to have an actual debate, but Biden’s ridiculous behavior was able to keep him on his heels through the constant smart ass asides, the interruptions and the laughing… and to his credit Ryan didn’t seem flummoxed by Biden, I think that he hit on all of the Romney/Ryan talking points that he needed to and advanced the narrative that the Obama administration has failed on it’s promises from 2008. He stayed on that message pretty consistently.
Ryan really can’t do funny though.. the jokes..and the way he kind of “huh huh’ed” after he told a joke came across to be as goofy and cringeworthy to me… as John said, Biden knows how to do the big show.. Ryan didn’t… had the debate been more civil and controlled, I think the wonkish aspect of Ryans personality would’ve helped him.. but it’s hard to be a wonk when the other guy is laughing and interrupting you the whole time.
It was painfully obvious to me that the moderator was in the tank for the Democrats… when she summarized one of Ryan’s answers as “Still No Specifics” I wanted to start yelling at my TV screen. Ridiculous. The debates are kind of a joke to begin with, but at least TRY and make it look like you’re being objective Martha Raddatz!
If I had to call it I’d say it was probably a draw in the sense that Biden’s behavior detracted from his overall intended message but I think it kept Ryan from being able to play to his perceived strength as an economic policy wonk. I can see how both sides would call it a win for themselves, but I don’t think that it will overwhelmingly move the dial one way or the other.
The attack ads from the right write themselves from this debate. Just show Ryan talking about Libya in the split screen with Biden yucking it up. Voice over saying 4 America’s killed on American soil and the Obama administration not only lies to the American people they think its funny
” when she summarized one of Ryan’s answers as “Still No Specifics” I wanted to start yelling at my TV screen. ”
I said, “Bitch!”
Very interesting theory, Dan. I guess we’ll know come next Tuesday night. I did think some of Ryan’s sorta funny asides were painful. But, his one riff on Biden’s gaffe was the only one that got a genuine laugh out of an audience that knew they were supposed to keep quiet, so that one came off well. And, Biden’s response – “I always say what I mean” also just writes more RNC ads.
I would have just gone with the Libya part and they totally ignored it but they must have been reading my comment.
Biden’s been the Court Jester for so long, he forgot to act serious in a debate.
Hey Tamer I caught you on JWS radioshow and no hard feelings about crediting Dan instead of me about the WH creating the story about the Youtube video.
Metaphorically speaking, which man would any of us want to be stuck in a broken elevator with ?
Hotness factor aside, I’d go with the guy who wants to at least Try to fix the lift, and work out an escape plan. One can only wonder how much worse Biden would have been without an Obot as moderator.
I resented the questions about religion, mainly because they are inappropriate and nobody cares. I wonder if dear Martha was trying to open the door for future questions about Mormonism, another bad strategy of the desperate
There’s nothing inappropriate about religion questions, especially if the candidate says his religious beliefs cannot be separated from his policy positions, which is what Ryan said. Actually it then becomes a really important question.
Why would any question be inappropriate if it reveals something that helps voters determine who a candidate is and how they think in the realm of public policy and public emergencies?
The only time questions that relate specifically to decision making and policy direction seem inappropriate is when the responses don’t match what you want or believe the electorate wants to hear from a candidate.
You may not care about the principles upon which a candidate makes choices but voters ought to.
And no I don’t give a damn about what I imagine a candidate would do if stuck in an elevator with me, anymore than I care what I imagine it’d be like to have a beer with him.
“which man would any of us want to be stuck in a broken elevator with ?”
Which one is more likely to cut a massive stinker?
Sorry, Conner – as soon as you mentioned elevator, and then hotness factor, I thought of Ryan and 50 Shades . . . and then . . wait a minute . . .what were we talking about?
Zal, as another long timer here, you know full well that having principles is not my problem. Lord knows I took enough heat from a now- departed poster for them. Since Catholicism’s tenets are well known, asking about them is not important, it is hackery.
I am reminded of JFK’s speech when he had to affirm that he would not consult the Pope on governance, which was at least as embarrassing as O’s speech on Race. Good grief, when are we going to put these dog whistles to rest?
I thought I made clear that the elevator was a metaphor, for our stuck and struggling country. Sometimes it helps simple minds like mine to reduce big, ugly messes to a manageable size, when thinking about them.. The only one I may be condescending to, is myself, which I think is allowed here.
Sorry if I sound peevish, but I tend to think everyone here is very principled, I thought that was a given.
Well said, Sophie.
Here, here. Or, is it hear, hear. I never know but nice comment.
There are millions of people who barely know anything about Catholicism, but that isn’t even the point. The question last night was not about Catholicism, it was about the role each candidate’s religious beliefs would play in their policy decision making. And since Ryan and Biden offered completely opposite approaches, the question was right on point. That is, if you’re trying to figure out who each candidate is and how they arrive at public policy decisions. Biden supports pro-choice and Ryan will work to undermine a woman’s freedom to choose for herself to have an abortion. Sussing that out from them is not hackery, it’s excellent moderating. You just didn’t like which man gave which answer.
What I wonder is why a woman who supported Hillary Clinton and has daughters and granddaughters would shrug off a basic freedom like the right to legally and safely terminate a pregnancy.
One of the most telling remarks of Biden’s was, in effect, ‘ if you people would just get out of the way’. He said it at least twice, and with anger. This, to me, is the hallmark strategy of the current imperialistic regime. i.e.” If all the morons would just shut the hell up, and let those of us who Know Better run the show, everything would be better.”
The problem is, every time they get the ball, they run into the wrong end zone, and still insist they made a touchdown.
That line was chilling. The proglodytes have been saying for some time, ‘why don’t the Repuglicans get out of our way/STFU/drop dead and let us take over!’ They truly want a fascist, one-party state.
The VP debate was Biden’s smile vs Ryan’s eyes. The eyes have it.
Tweetable. Since you don’t Tweet:
To be fair, not my line. Someone texted it to me this am
It is sad to see that this blog has become, with some exceptions, just another echo chamber for Republican talking points. “Hyena Joe” (in so many words) popped up here almost immediately. Disliking Obama doesn’t mean automatically disliking Biden (who I would have voted for gladly instead of Obama) unless you are trying to get Romney elected. Why would anyone who has liberal leanings ever consider Romney a viable candidate? So, now I am wondering whether this blog ever represented Pumas (people who are Democrats but hated what happened to Hillary) or whether it has always been a place to guide upset Dems over to the dark side, a Republican covert op. Whatever the situation, I don’t belong here. Zal — do you hang out anywhere else? I would like to continue reading your comments but would prefer to do it somewhere else given the rising conservative tide here.
How ridiculous. Like one has to like Biden despite his cantankerous and rude, not to mention largely substance-free, performance last night. I used to like him, notwithstanding that I’m not a Dem, before he turned in a full-on-dickhead performance last night.
I’m surprised you continue to come here after your past insults to John and his blog. Do you not understand that it’s rude and otherwise indecorous to drop in just to blog on the Blogmeister?
Erratum: “… drop in just to DUMP on….”
Really, NES — you used to like Biden? He lost me with his treatment of Anita Hill during the Clarence Thomas Senate confirmation hearings — and that was long before I knew what a hypocrite he was with his “middle class warrior” schtick.
Sally — People who think they are “liberal” because they vote for whoever has the “D” after his/her name are better off at echo-chambers like Kos where actual *records* are not part of the equation. So bon voyage!
I’ve thought Biden was a bazoon ever since he first ran for president way back, back when I was still an ardent Dem. He’ll say the first thing that pops into his brain — sometimes it’s welcome frankness, usually it’s made-up shit, like his claim that we can’t intervene in Syria because it’s five times larger than Libya.
He’s good at working the ropes on Capitol Hill, that’s it. Biden’s always been a loose cannon & a fabulist. Last night he proved he’s become a demented old fool, not to mention an abrasive, boorish dry drunk.
“Why would anyone who has liberal leanings ever consider Romney a viable candidate?”
Why would anyone willingly ingest poison? When they’re undergoing chemotherapy to remove a cancer.
I’m voting for Jill Stein. But the Uni-Party has ensured that we’ll be getting either a bad president (Romney), or a bad tyrant (obama). We can survive the bad presidency, not the tyranny.
Sally:
John was on the first Puma conference call. John and I went to Clinton’s inauguration. Believe me when I say this is not a covert rebuilt an site. We also worked for McGovern for president in Boston in 1984.
I left the democratic party when Donna Brazille told me I was no longer needed. I am not voting for Obama and I cannot vote for Romney. This site is an oasis for non party people like me.
Sally:
I’m still trying to figure out what happened to these people, just as I’m trying to figure out what happened to my friends of many years who voted for Obama in 2008, and those who saw Obama for what he was in 2008 and are now supporting him.
Before 2008 I thought it was Republicans, Bushies, neocons. 2008 revealed that it’s in many Democrats as well. Now this year it’s being revealed in some Hillary supporters. It’s beyond ideology, beyond principle, beyond reason. For example, nobody has been more committed to women’s rights than Hillary Clinton, and yet several female Hillary supporters actively support and defend Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan, a man who gives millions a year to an institution that insists upon the subjugation of women and his running mate who made it clear last night he’ll do everything he can to undermine a woman’s freedom to have an abortion. That alone, aside from the obvious economic and energy and tax and social issues, has got to stop a clear thinker in their tracks. What leads some people to not only vote but to argue viciously in favor of things that are against their own best interest and long held beliefs? As I’ve said, it’s getting worse, not better. Bushies actually were conservatives and Obamabots believed an amazing dream was coming true; what does Romney/Ryan offer Hillary supporters aside from revenge – Hillary’s principles and policy plans couldn’t have been more at odds with the Romney/Ryan platform.
There are a few possible explanations for it, which I’ve explored here and will continue to explore. The United States is in dire circumstances but our economy etc is only a symptom of the disease, the root of which can be found in whatever this is in Americans that’s causing them to make choices so self-destructive and counterintuitive.
This is the only blog I comment on. I’m always open to trying anything new, though.
“These People.” ??? That’s Racist!
“zaladonis says:
October 12, 2012 at 10:39 am
Sally:
I’m still trying to figure out what happened to these people, ”
zal, if you are going to call us “these people” belittling us, then why don’t you leave too. i am so annoyed how you say we have no principles when we don’t agree with the all knowing zal. i am tired of your devil’s advocate arguments when there needn’t be, when you are just doing it to argue and i feel like you are doing it to manipulate us to not vote for romney when for me he is better than ob any day of the week because he is not a lazy ahole like ob is. if you think we are unknowing, so sheeple, so not smart, then leave. i am tired of being condensended to for thinking through all possible scenarious and coming to the conclusion that the only way to stop obama is to vote against him. but you only see in black and white, so you only see voting not for obama as actually having to back that person you are voting for. well this is a grey world we live in and it is some of our strategies to vote against someone. if you don’t like that, then suck it and stop lecturing us. and stop belittling us… seriously, you can leave if you want to, we won’t shackle you down and keep you here if you don’t want to stay especially if we are so little in your mind to have to be lectured to everyday.
Kanaughty – I think Zal just craves the attention – any attention even if negative. (In fact, probably better when it’s negative). And, as an Obama supporter, yes he’s also trying to get people to vote against Romney too. Which is why he stays here and makes outlandish comments often. He’ll actually say things that are borderline unstable to get that attention. In an ongoing back and forth on another post, he twice compared me to The Joker, as in the Batman villian – no lie – in a completely serious way. I guess to try to get a rise out of me, hence the craving of the attention.
For me, I just added that to the long list of fabulous things Zal truly believes he is. So now, he also believes he is a courageous caped crusader of mythic status looking down on “these little people” of Gotham from his aerial perch in the light of the moon.
Then you’re annoyed at a fantasy you’ve made up yourself, because I’ve never said that.
I say you are principle-impaired if you supported Hillary Clinton and what she stood for and now advocate for Mitt Romney. The two are very clearly at odds. Being Obama’s opponent was not what defined Hillary Clinton’s principles. This has nothing to do with me or whether we agree, it has to do with our choices defining us.
Yep, Angie, I’m afraid I thought he was basically a decent fella — for a politician though. Eg, hypocrisy in pols doesn’t shock me, even if I’m always willing to call it out. I have a vague recollection of his handling of the Anita Hill hearing, but was more focused on the bad behavior of the Reeps.
Jay, here’s the thing with SCOTUS. While I think Roe is an extremely flawed decision — logically and legally, relying as it does on mushy views of “viability” (which were always doomed to chance with technological advances), I always thought it worth defending, in part by having a balanced SCOTUS. (Personally, I have an entirely libertarian view of abortion, as in, a third party’s concern for a fetus, stops where a woman’s skin begins; period.) Now, I think Roe will probably survive, albeit in a weakened form, as legal precedent — I allow for the possiblility that this optimism will prove to be misplaced.
Given the trajectory of current events, I’m now much more concerned with free speech and corrosive political correctness, and how those are being exploited by Islamists to undermine Western societies and value-systems. I have a great deal of confidence that the right-wing SCOTUS Justices will be vigilant in that battle, and fear the left-wing justices won’t (ironically) due to their soft-headed political-correctness. In matters of our free speech and free exercise rights I’m throwing in my lot with ‘strict constructionists.’
Very interesting take NES. I do see where you’re coming from on this.
As I suspected, the one substantive issue coming out of the debate last night that’s being discussed widely is Biden’s bizarre insistence on saying the exact opposite about everything the administration knew and did wrt the Libya terror attack of the factual evidence (emails, video, administration testimony). This whole situation is so incredibly weird. If it weren’t so tragic, it would remind me of a Peter Sellers movie.
“Um, Sir – we seem to have a bit of a problem in one of our Libyan consulates. In fact, 4 Americans, including our ambassador have been killed in a terror attack.”
“Wait – that can’t have happened. That’ll step all over our campaign speeches about kiling OBL. Let’s think, what’s the alternate story? I know – find a junior foreign service officer or a WH intern and have them do that google thing to find some video of someone in the US insulting Islam or Mohammed or burning a Koran. That’ll be easy to point to as an instigator – you know how Muslims go crazy over that stuff. They’ll go crazy and we can blur the timeline. I mean – there’s got to be, like a million of those kinds of videos on the intertubes, right. . . . . “
Run, I suspect you are describing the situation quite accurately..
Jay Carnival’s statement today attempted to deflect the whole mess to the State Dept.. Color me unsurprised.,I wonder if this has anything to do with all the skipped Security briefings ?
What will surprise is if WJC stays on the stump for O, after this.
NES.. Your pov is food for much thought, very unique.. All pendulums eventually swing too far, the PC movement has done exactly that.
Zal, I hate the way replies can’t ‘nest’ here. Principles are unique to each of us, they are not,imo, universal truths. I’ll stick with mine, and I respect your right to stick with yours.
My family seems to have some principles in common with their father and me, maybe they’re somewhat inherited, like eye color.
My point is not your or anybody else’s principles versus mine.
My point is Hillary Clinton’s principles versus Romney/Ryan’s, how completely different they are in terms of public policy, in particular but by no means limited to women’s right to make their own choices about their own bodies, and how someone who supports one can turn around and support the other. I’m not saying people don’t have a right to do that, I’m saying it calls into question the reason they supported Hillary or the reason they’re supporting Romney/Ryan. If their support is principled, what are the principles they supported in Hillary that are consistent with Romney/Ryan.
Zal, perhaps I missed it, but I don’t believe you’ve told us what you thought of the Ryan-Biden debate. I’ve read all your critiques of other’s comments, though, and infer that you liked Biden’s performance. Is that correct? If so, I’ll note Biden was light on substance and exceedingly heavy on rudeness — features you’ve railed against in the past.
I thought it was entertaining. Biden did better than I expected; Ryan did pretty much as I expected.
I was impressed with the extent Biden prepared (which Obama clearly didn’t bother to do). His interrupting Ryan at just the right moments, laughing at him at just the right moments, Biden did an excellent job of using aggressive tactics to knock Ryan down a notch or two and make him look a little foolish, too young and inexperienced. It’s rude but can be effective, and considering what he was up against and his own negatives I think it was a good choice for Biden. I suspect it played well to Obama’s base that was disappointed in Obama’s performance. Anita said it didn’t play well to women, which is likely true, though I’m not sure I agree about independents in general. On a superficial note, Biden is yucky and his teeth an annoying distraction.
I thought Ryan did a good job. He wasn’t intimidated or thrown off by Biden’s antics, and for the most part he presented his case well. His youthfulness probably appealed to a lot of people but may’ve made at least an equal number uncomfortable; he comes across very young –not only in looks– to step into the President’s shoes in an emergency. I think it’s funny some Romney supporters are saying they’re impressed he knew things like the fighting season in Afghanistan — sounds like adoring adults saying “good job!” to a kid. I think (as I do about most people) Ryan’s at his best and strongest when he’s sincere and forthright, like in his answer about abortion. Unfortunately I don’t want an administration with his kind of policy positions, but I respect his commitment to principle (which Biden didn’t demonstrate) and integrity. I don’t know how it plays to most Americans but I like it. Also, I know it’s silly, but I liked that his two young children took a swing in the chairs afterwards and how he smoothly got them up to leave the stage – I think that reveals something good about him. Superficial note: he might’ve gained a bit of gravitas if he’d used a hair style (and no product) that made him look like a serious adult at a serious event.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment, Zal. We disagree on Biden’s effectiveness — I think he compromised it terribly (as I’ve already gassed on about downthread). I do agree on this: Biden was well-prepared (and, in that sense, he didn’t insult his audience by being lazy like his boss); he played well to his base (the results speak for themselves); and he had a difficult task (saving his lazy boss’s ass).
I’ll tell you this, though, I used to like him before yesterday, notwithstanding that I almost never agree with anything he says. And, it wasn’t any lies or hypocrisy he engaged in (all politicians do). It was his rude, obnoxious, and disrespectful behavior. One can destroy one’s opponent with due deference to the rules of decorum: it happens in court’s all across the country, everyday.
Some can, and whether or not it’s a good strategy depends on the circumstances. I don’t think Biden could have and I don’t think he wanted to. I think Biden accomplished exactly what he wanted, and I don’t think he could have accomplished more for himself and Obama if he’d deferred to “rules of decorum.” To do the best one can, one has to understand one’s strengths and weaknesses and work them into one’s game.
And this hissy fit some here are having over rudeness is laughable – as if the people complaining aren’t rude when they feel like being rude. People ignore rules of decorum all the time, in worse ways and for less profit than Biden did. This was a high stakes event and I’m not offended by both men bringing their best game to the table. Maybe it might have bothered me if I was invested in Romney/Ryan, but that would only be my own weakness and that’s one reason I’m glad I don’t have a dog in this race: I can see the candidates and their supporters more clearly than any presidential race in my life. It’s like being sober at a party where most people are drunk, something I’ve always thought is a lot more interesting than being an inebriated life of the party.
If so, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the bus finds itself in flames shortly. You don’t want a Clinton under your bus. They’ll plant a bomb.
Spot on, Jay! A comment as ture as it’s hilarious.
The law of political gravity dictates that a head must roll for Benghazi; so who’s head will it be? Obama plays with fire when he casts his treacherous eye on Hillary;s head; but, he may be stupid enough to go there. She should threaten to resign and bring down his house of cards before the election.
Other candidates? Susan Rice has taken on the palllor of a patsy, so she won’t be a sufficient human sacrifice. Maybe it’ll be NIC guy…whoever the hell he is.
Zal, Roe v. Wade isn’t going anywhere, hopefully increased awareness of the Plan B pill will eventually lower the numbers of surgical abortions. The lawyers here should speak on this, not me, but overturning a long held Scotus decision isn’t exactly like sending an overcooked steak back to the kitchen. At least that is my notion. No one politician is going to accomplish this, without huge support, which is not there. It amazes me that anyone still falls for this line. Don’t we as concerned citizens have more pressing issues to think about ? Buying food comes to mind as slightly more critical.
Now as a woman, I can tell you that Joe Biden under any name, is known in every office in the land, smarmy, rude, talking over everyone else, especially women. All he missed was calling Martha “little lady”..or “sweetie”..God what a fossil, I thought all the aluminum siding salesmen were dead.
If one is principled, principles create the framework for the choices we make. And (like Hillary and unlike Obama) I do believe Paul Ryan is a principled man. Therefore, when he says he will not separate tenets of Catholicism from how he wants to shape public policy, I believe him. And I do not want public policy shaped by Catholicism any more than I want it shaped by Islam. The ramifications of what he said go far beyond abortion. And even on the abortion issue alone, it’s interesting how many Romney/Ryan supporters are pretending, or fooling themselves into believing, it’s only about a Supreme Court decision.
Hillary’s principles align with almost everyone’s here. She is, imo, patriotic, smart ,savvy, a policy wonk, and a tireless worker…. Most Catholics are Democrats, we are used to compartmentalizing.This is not hard for other Catholics or pragmatists to understand. Everyone has to make lemonade sometimes.
I hope Hillary is still who I thought she was, but the old ‘lying down with dogs and getting fleas’ warning could be in play here. Time will tell.
The candidates were expected to engage each other. What you characterize as rudeness was part of the debate format. I went back and looked at the video. Ryan smiled too but he has a small, tight-lipped smile whereas Biden has a broad smile and is generally a more expressive guy (his smile comes and goes whereas Ryans stays fixed on his face). Biden didn’t smile about Benghazi. He smiled when his name was mentioned, first when Ryan said he and Romney agreed with the President and again when Ryan said the VP was in charge of negotiations. I didn’t see disrespect or an inappropriate emotional reaction when discussing the attack. He was serious at that point. I see no reason why a candidate must look “respectful” or serious or any other prescribed way while his opponent is speaking. Both used the time to write notes while the other was speaking, but as Bob Somersby notes, Obama was criticized for looking down too much during the first debate, following that advice to concentrate on note-taking so that he wouldn’t be accused of smirking or mugging, or whatever miscellaneous gesture the opposition can focus on. The only way to stay blameless is to be off camera, as used to be standard. Since the split screen is turned on and off by the TV show director, people watching different channels would have seen different split screen appearances, which would have the impact of emphasizing candidate reactions or deemphasizing them. It is a manipulation of what the public sees. But, I’ve got to ask again. Why are people here so quick to echo conservative talking points about Biden’s smiling, and why is body-language so much more important than the answers given by the candidates?
In a word – Bullshit!
Biden was rude and condescending. I’m not surprised you took this stance, considering your earlier comment on this thread. Stevie Wonder could see that Biden was doing exactly what his base needed him to do to get Obama’s base energized again. Let’s just call a spade a spade rather than a digging implement
So what?
Politics is blood sport, not a debutante ball.
Biden’s job was to win; being sweet and nice wouldn’t have been a winning strategy.
“Biden’s job was to win; being sweet and nice wouldn’t have been a winning strategy.”
Agreed on both counts. But, being an a-hole in front of 42 million viewers, many of them undecided or wavering voters, wasn’t a winning strategy either. It’s possible to be both sharp and domineering without being rude and disrespectful. Romney and Obama do it; Ryan did it. I don’t know why everyone just tolerates this boorish, out-of-control, barroom brawling behavior from Biden? I suspect it’s because they don’t think he’s very smart or polished — the soft bias of lowered expectations.
Zal, if you read my entire comment instead of giving in to your knee jerk response to disagree with any comment that has my icon next to it, you would have seen that I said exactly the same thing: Biden did exactly as he needed to do to satisfy his base. But to try and call shit ice cream is just disingenuous on Sally’s part, and to try and discredit what I had to say about it is just you being you.
Here is Kevin Drum’s take on things, which I agree with:
“Conservatives seem to have decided that they’re going all-in on Biden’s demeanor as their primary point of attack, and this provides us with an excellent field study of working the refs. As near as I can tell, the general reaction last night was that Biden was pretty good: loose, aggressive, passionate, and taking no guff from Ryan. At worst, maybe he overdid things a bit, but that’s all.
Question: will that consensus change as conservatives continue to hammer relentlessly on their theme that Biden was rude, condescending, obnoxious, creepy, unbearable, etc. etc.? I suspect it will, though perhaps less so than it would have a few years ago. Nonetheless, the right-wing reality-distortion machine is still pretty strong. This will certainly be a bigger topic of conversation today than it deserves to be.”
Sally, I hope you keep participating here because I like everyone to participate. It’s long been a goal. If I wanted or intended this site to become a neo-con talking point blog I’d go there for economic reasons alone. They all tend to get more traffic – certainly more than a blog that hasn’t endorsed anyone. I could play a neo-con on the interwebs with relative ease. They are easy reads. But I’d not mean it and it would not be me. I have inched toward a more conservative stance on a few things in the last 4 years but it hardly amounts to any movement at all. I’m “conservative” on Israel…but I always have been. I’m convinced the age of austerity is here nationally. This feels more like a weather report than a political stance on my part. I also think the race stuff that is played periodically is poison – which to the shallow ear I’m sure appears “conservative”. It isn’t.
People here can say almost any damn thing they want. If many of the people who comment here support or appear to support Romney – more power to them. They’re beating the drum for the person they think it best. Good on them, I say. Overt Obama supporters are very welcome here but almost never show up…which is the way it works now in blogland. Oh well. At least 2 regulars forcefully endorse Stein…regularly…and a number of others have chimed in support for her. Comment back if you don’t agree with whoever…without a doubt I set the tone…i mean i called Biden an asshole and think he was one last night.
Obama HAS supplied a surprising about of material. I admit I’m sick of him but he does keep giving…and he is the POTUS which makes what he does central…and I say point blank in this post I think Biden won. He screwed himself by being such as ass. There were points he simply won – then sneered about it which diminished his point. I add bunches of caveats about his behavior which matters every bit as much in a format like this…i did not make these rules, btw. We live in a world where stuff like laughing and smirks matter. Drum’s take is straight up and also obvious from him. It’s the same crap the right is obsessed with today only reversed. If Ryan had wonked out with added smirks and snickers Drum would ONLY be telling us what a brat he is. He’s playing the same “game” as the right only for his team. I’m writing about the game. Biden made today’s news about his snorting asides – not me or the frothing masses of neo-cons. What’s weird to me is that he could have simply “won” the debate a number of times without his snorting.
PLEASE don’t imply you’re not welcome here. You most certainly are. If that means you end up with a minority view in the comment section…so be it. Ain’t nothing wrong with having another opinion.
Sally, Biden lied, about an issue that left four men dead. If you caught any part of the hearings last week, you heard the testimony re. terrorism, and how many times more security was requested.
I will grant you that because Biden is so gaffe prone, he is probably kept in the dark about a lot of issues. But he lied in direct contradiction to sworn testimony that was televised the day before the debate..He’s got chutzpah, I’ll give him that.
He also lied about Obama’s tax policies (it is, as Ryan said, increasing taxes on everyone making $250k & more — which includes many small businesses — not only people making at least a million a year as Biden said) and the Catholic Bishops called him out on his Obamacare lie. No one has mentioned the relative sizes of Libya v. Syria yet. But basically, the White House had had to walk back or flat out take back every single thing Biden said last night other than his name.
The Obama supporters started off all happy, defending Biden’s clownish conduct (which even TOM BROKAW as well as every *serious* journalist criticized–i.e., not Matthews or Kos) and thinking the right’s complaints were nothing but “sour grapes” but as the day wore on everything started to fall apart as *THE* number one story was Biden’s huge Libya lie (which, btw, even *if* it were true please note: the Obama supporters seem to be 100% A-OK with a completely clueless & incompetent POTUS & VP). If Biden’s plan was to give the Obama supporters a brief respite from panic and despair after last week’s Denver debate, followed by even more panic and despair, then job well done!
I don’t mind comments on content. I object to the comments on body language. They come right from the RNC talking points and have little to do with the substance of the debate. If I want talking points instead of comment I know where to go to get it.
It is Biden’s job to communicate the Administration’s position. Obama is the head liar and it isn’t the VP’s place to disagree. I have said several times I am voting for Stein. But Bidden had better answers than Ryan so the Repubs have to call him a jerk for smiling, just as the criticised Obama for looking down at notes too much. Anything to distract from substance. And you seem to go where you are led.
I’m a Stein voter too. I loved seeing Ryan get his ass kicked. But then I loved seeing Obama get his ass kicked too. I’m so happy I don’t have to polish either of these turds.
That, to quote Biden, is a bunch of Malarky. Tom Brokaw & Joe Trippi — as well as every *respected* journalist/pundit — not just right wing bloggers — all admonished Biden for his completely ludicrous body language and said he lost points because of it. In the real world, comportment/decorum counts for a lot– if I walked into a court room & exhibited the kind of body language Biden did while the opposing counsel spoke, the Judge would *rightfully* hold me in contempt — and I’m a rube consumer bankruptcy attorney, not the Vice President of the United States of America. The man wasn’t at a bar — he was at vice-presidential debate. And this is not a “right wing talking point” — this is common civilized behavior that we are talking about here. The fact that people don’t recognize this is actually frightening — the *real* problem in this country is not that we elected such an obvious fraud as Obama to the presidency, it is the confederacy of dunces who *still* support him and who try to downplay and/or justify such behavior from his VP.
“I don’t mind comments on content. I object to the comments on body language.”
Is there any particular reason I should care what you “mind” or “object” to? Is there a guidance manual on permitted comments. I mean, honestly, this “talking points” accusation is utter nonsense — a cheap shot, even. I don’t get “talking points” memos everyday, or every week, or ever, and I doubt anyone else here does. One can think for oneself and come to the same conclusions as others (or not). I happen to have formed my impressions of Biden’s and Ryan’s respective performances by listening to part of the debate on radio and watching all of it on YouTube. Apparently, there’re others who came to the same conclusion (and many who didn’t). In all cases, they were using their brains, not scrutinizing talking-points memos.
Anyone who’s engaged in formal debating knows that debates are about form and substance, and not just the latter. Tone and appearance are powerful non-verbal communicators — they can advance or hinder persuasion, just as much as content can. Biden’s mannerisms severely hindered my ability to focus on or be persuaded by what he was saying. Also, any debater worth his/her salt also knows that sussing out and addressing the target audience is key to a good debate. Presumably, the VP and Presidential debates on very lip of an election are primarily targeted to the undecided or wavering voters: I doubt Biden reached them; they were irritated by his rude and out-of-control mien. If Biden’s target was the base, he clearly succeeded in reaching them (depressed as they were by Obama’s lazy and detached performance of a week ago). Kudos to him for that. But, it’s a sad campaign that’s still trying to reach its base less than a month from election day.
Cogent points, Angie and NES. And, I though Angie was particulary spot on. It appears that we can’t even spot civilized behavior or call out uncivilized behavior anymore based on which “team” you are on. Wow – maybe we are too far gone.
NES (xxoo!) and Angie, well said. Sally, IMO, referring to Biden’s behavior as “smiling” is really minimizing it. He smiled, snarled, guffawed, threw his head and hands up into the air, rolled his eyes, and did these things while interrupting Ryan speaking. He also did it when very serious issues were being spoken of by Ryan (such as American deaths). It was rude, juvenile mannered, unprofessional, and disrespectful. It was behavior, in a formal setting, not befitting a vice president.
lorac!! How wonderful to see you again! Please come out to play more. Miss you.
Also, dont forget the “pie place.” xo
“I loved seeing Ryan get his ass kicked.”
It’s fascinating how different are the lens through which we see the same event. I don’t recall Ryan getting his ass kicked. I think he did rather well, and, by standing up to Joe and keeping his cool in the face of surrounding jakenappe-ness, gained in stature. What I do recall is the sense that Joe was embarrassing himself, repeatedly, by his sneers, jeers, and muggings. Frankly, his mannerisms made it very hard to focus on what he was saying.
“…don’t have to polish either of these turds.”
I don’t get that oft-used phrase. Voting for one or the other candidate is not “polish[ing]” either of them. Every fourth year, on the first Tues. in early Nov., we’re presented with two major party candidates and a smattering of third party candidates. Unless one is staying home, one marks the ballot for the candidate one thinks is most deserving; that’s it. No polishing involved.
So we both get to be happy about how the debate went. Cool.
Of course not, but defending one is.
This blog is not a voting booth, we’re not voting here we’re discussing, and everybody who’s advocating Obama/Biden or Romney/Ryan is polishing a turd.
Sally, I’d argue that Biden’s attitude was part of the debate. It was part of the content, the messaging and therefore worthy of discussion. Half of Biden’s “content” were his chosen affectations. He was obnoxious on purpose. Therefore it was part of his message. Initially I thought it was working – as noted above and still do – if the goal was to excite Obama’s base. How it played to the 5% still holding out is any one’s guess. I’m betting – not well.
Imagine Biden saying and doing the exact same things in 2008 with Palin next to him. If he’d behaved that way with Palin we’d be talking about it – with a river of complaints to go along with it about what a sexist cad he was to a sitting governor. Biden was respectful of Palin, not because he has any respect for her, but because he knew that behavior would have been blasted. Since it was another man…it’s okay? or not part a worthy of the conversation? I think it is. Biden’s smirks were a debate tactic. I don’t think discussing them is caving to GOP talking points by default. It’s worthy of discussion. And, oddly, as noted before Biden won on content often. He didn’t need to put on a show. But he did.
It is mindreading to say you know his behavior was intentional. He is animated in every interview. He was being Biden not engaging in some strategy. Ryan is a stick so he heightened the contrast when they were shown side-by-side.
Oh I couldn’t disagree more, Sally. I think it was obvious Biden not only had a strategy but that he’d prepared it with great care. He was like an actor doing improv and never breaking character. That was his job, that’s what he’s supposed to do: he’s supposed to win the debate, and to do that he needed to know what strategy he could use, given his talents and weaknesses, and then hone it.
Romney/Ryan supporters complaining about it only indicates Biden’s strategy was effective. Biden wasn’t trying to please them or be likable to them; if they’re displeased that means he did his job. The poll numbers also indicate his strategy, and his execution, was effective.
“The poll numbers also indicate his strategy, and his execution, was effective.”
Really? Which polls? As I recall, only one of the four to five instant polls conducted after the debate gave the win to Biden. That doesn’t indicate an effective strategy. Also, the target audience for a debate this close to the election should be undecided or wavering voters, not one’s base. Biden was playing to the base with his over-the-top conduct — he pleased them, but that’s not sufficient. As I said somewhere else on this thread, if a campaign is still trying to energize its base this close to the election, it’s in trouble.
Both campaigns are in trouble.
And your recollection is wrong. The polls are split, as are the pundits. As many people were pleased with Biden as were pleased with Ryan. That’s actually pretty amazing, considering how unappealing Joe Biden was physically and temperamentally compared to the youthful good looking nice Paul Ryan.
http://www.examiner.com/article/most-major-polls-show-joe-biden-beating-paul-ryan-vice-presidential-debate
Old guys are 2 and O. Big ears are O and 2. Why aren’t more people talking about this?
What an interesting discussion. The one thing Obama has brought us to, I guess, is full circle. We really are 2 Americas now – maybe not red state and blue state but “team” state and “who ever is competent state.” I honestly don’t know how I’ve gotten to the point where I take in the same exact sensory inputs as people who used to be in the same party as me and now see them so, so differently. I feel I haven’t changed, but they have. But, it’s just as likely that they haven’t changed, but I have. I only can take the world as it changes around me and try to figure out based on my own principles, how to make the best choices I can.
Which is why I found Biden’s behavior so disturbing. I absolutely thought this would be basically a draw. That one old guard would defend – better than his boss – the liberal ideology and a new guard (only in age) would defend a conservative one. And, we’d have an interesting discussion, with competing ideas presented, but one which was generally a draw at the end.
Instead, we saw a man essentially debase himself in front of the entire nation by acting like a complete fool in service of a party. Not even for an ideology or a principle, since he lied so much who knows what his principles are at this point – but for a party -nothing else. He didn’t just smile too much; he debased the entire process by his guffawing and mocking and laughing and interrupting and gesticulating. He didn’t insult Ryan so much as he insulted the notion of having to even discuss these weighty issues with an opponent and so insulted us. I wish even Democrats could see that.
In all of this sturm und drang, no one here has mentioned the fact that Biden barely mentioned Obama’s name throughout the debate. In fact, I think he only mentioned him once if at all. That’s odd – to say the least – behavior from a VP.
Good point, Run. I think he was running for POTUS in ’16. Poor deluded fool. The base that loves him now because he’s defending their false god will abandon him for the next shiny trinket that rolls into the nomination on a thin (but ethnically-charged) resume.
It’s not mind reading Sally. It’s observation. He did not act that way in 2008. Why? He would have been destroyed for it. It is delusional to think Biden did not prep with plans to get under Ryan’s skin. The man knows how to control his laughter for God’s sake. He doesn’t have tourettes. He’s a grown man who decided to interrupt 80 plus times. To laugh and sneer at the weirdest times. People do it on talk radio all the time. This is politics/performance 101 stuff. They rehearsed with a stand in. Biden was coached to look down on the “boy”. That was his “objective in the scene”. He made choices as to how to achieve his objective. They included sneering, laughing, interrupting. Ryan was coached to seem fixed to the ground and remain calm as he’s much younger and this was his weakness. This gamesmanship should surprise no one. Obama’s collapse last week was because he did NOT prep in this way.
A fine example of the axiom that a picture is worth a thousand words.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/the-many-gesticulations-of-joe-biden?s=mobile
(I’ll note that this is taken from Ben Smith’s new Obama-blowing website. The fact that he’s doing this to Biden must mean he’s reading the right-wing’s “talking points”; right? /s)
Chit! It just occurred to me that Ben Smith, eternally in kneepads to the TheLordObama, may have intended the photo-montage linked above as a compliment to Biden! Anyone else suspect this? If my suspicion holds, it’s a fine example of the concern Run voiced above: are we now on such different “teams” that we can’t agree on what is and isn’t civil conduct?
Buzzfeed is not a new website. It’s been around since 2006 and Ben Smith was only recently hired as editor-in-chief. Jonah Peretti, a Young Urban Narcissist if ever there was one, who co-founded Buzzfeed a year after co-founding Huffington Post, would not appreciate Buzzfeed being called Ben Smith’s website!
What you linked to was put together by Gavon Laessig, and if you scroll around his other posts you see he’s much more concerned about being cool and clever than blowing anybody in particular. Biden provided visuals that were safe to mock (he isn’t black or cool).
Ben Smith’s highest priority, like virtually all these media fellas, is his cool factor. Obama was (and remains – to them anyway, for now) cool. Biden never has been and never will be cool. He’s the old geek (nerd? I never know which is which) the cool kids brought along because they had a use for him. Biden is mockable.
Ya think?!
Larry Sloan the co-founder of Mad Libs passed away today at age 89.